^When it stops being shocking and starts being boring then I pity mankind and their morality. When looking at young girls on the runway in various stages of undress is no longer shocking then we as humans should be reevaluating ourselves and our beliefs... There's a thin line between being a man and a monster, that's crossing the line in my opinion.

TRUER WORDS HAVE NEVER BEEN SPOKEN!

Maybe it's a European thing to like children... but in my country that shit doesn't fly.

It's ok for teens to be nude or topless in the name of fashion? Oh hell no! If your average person had as many pics of topless underage girls on their computer in America, the FBI would be looking into it... and jail time would be inevitable.

Geeez. Stop with that "european thing", you don´t live here, you have no idea about Europe at all... no, we are not use to it and no, it´s not considered normal. At least not in my country. It´s called pedofilia actually And pedo´s are everywhere, even - surprise! - in your country too. How much of them is in fashion, god knows.

I was only pointing out, that the only thing fashion is about is trying to be SHOCKING. And that everything stops eventually. Once it will be about healthy women again, because people will not want to look at the girls anymore. Now, average people start to lose interest in fashion because they don´t want to look at the young girls, but it´s still not enough.

But here, in Slovakia, people are actually starting to notice fashion - because of models like Gisele (Vogue eyewear, Calzedonia), Alessandra (H & M), Daria, Bar, Rosie, Doutzen and even Adriana and many others... the "thin&young girls phenomenon" hasn´t come here yet.

Hope it never will.

I pity mankind and their morality from they day I started to learn about this world. More and more.

COP11 Posted Yesterday, 09:00 PM

I don't know if any of you remember Tara D'Ambrosio from the late 80's, early 90's. She did Revlon ads shoy by Scavullo at 8 then was on the cover of Vogue shortly after. And also did runway shows before she hit 10.

Revlon is an American company, isn´t it?

Interesting

And the cover, as I found out, was German Vogue in 1986.

Shocking, it´s really international

Maybe it's a European thing to like children... but in my country that shit doesn't fly.

It's ok for teens to be nude or topless in the name of fashion? Oh hell no! If your average person had as many pics of topless underage girls on their computer in America, the FBI would be looking into it... and jail time would be inevitable.

Geeez. Stop with that "european thing", you don´t live here, you have no idea about Europe at all... no, we are not use to it and no, it´s not considered normal. At least not in my country. It´s called pedofilia actually And pedo´s are everywhere, even - surprise! - in your country too. How much of them is in fashion, god knows.

Thanks Jennka, I was about to reply to this thing 2 days ago but my reply was about to be much less diplomatic so I decided not to post anything

I'm just about over anyone who thinks it's ok to view a girl who is 17 and under in any type of transparent/opaque clothing, or in any type of nudity.

At the risk of an argument - because I do love them - I think opinions like this are overreactions. I mean, if you find a young woman to be attractive, it's acceptable if she's eighteen years and one day old, but you're a pervert if she's seventeen years and 364 days old? I'm not saying I'm going to go drool over some young girls (after all, my favorite model is considered an old hag by 75% of this forum), but I'm certainly not going to make a big deal about some number society arbitrarily slapped on the concept of adulthood contrary to thousands of years of human history and nature. Girls mature at different rates. Even ten years later, I can remember girls from high school with bodies the average model would sell their soul to have. If the industry wants to hire them for a shoot with a certain amount of sexuality involved, I won't get upset.

If we all want to get technical here, yes, back in the day, a girl was married off as soon as she started her menstrual cycle, because she was then able to start child barring, and for the most part the husband was older than the hills. So the whole the younger the better has been around for DECADES!!!!! I wouldnt say this is a Euro Thing at ALL, its a SOCEITY as a WHOLE issue, doesnt matter where in my book!!!

Sadly our society in general is very voyeuristic and will continue to be so, it requires more & more to “shock” us anymore, and half the time, due to the designer wanting their models so tiny, as to “show off” their clothing line at its best at advantage, it is preferred the female be as tiny & shapeless to a point.

This doesn’t fly for Swimwear or Lingerie, where a curvy yet slender, toned, shape is required.

I know this is a bit off topic, but why is it that as a woman gets older she is considered as losing her looks or becoming a hag; yet as men get older they are considered to look distinguished?

and at what point is it that a woman is considered too old to be sexy?

at close to 40 years old, Dita Von teese looks evey bit as good as these models in their 20's.

Apologies in advance, it's a miniature novel :|

In regards to the European comments, I don't think Pretty meant it as an overall generalization that Europe was necessarily more morally corrupt, or dissident, more on the lines that quite a few European countries are much more accepting of implied or full fledged nudity. Whereas you might point out that America has a huge porn industry, (in fact I believe it's the largest in the world, don't quote me on that though) the fact remains that I can go pick up a magazine in the United States and there will be little to no actual nudity in it, while ordering French magazines, (for example) there are maybe 10-15 pages without nudity.

Now I'm not saying that one is better then the other, and it may in fact have just been the magazines I happened to order, but as an overall, at least in my personal opinion, based on what I personally have seen, Europeans tend to be much more open to the idea. Perhaps it's simply because to a large extent a great deal of the fashion community seems to be centered in Europe. The fashion community and it's practices are after all what we are all in controversy over.

As for 18 being a magical number that makes nudity implied or otherwise alright that was a generalized statement. I'm not saying once you've hit 18 that it's ok to suddenly rip your clothes off and prance around naked in front of a camera, nor that it's indicative of one country or another. The number was thrown out because that is generally considered the age of majority in a number of countries, (my own included) and that it's indicative of having a fully matured body, and hopefully mentality that allows these girls, (or guys) to know exactly what they are doing. The premise being that no one is taking advantage of a young unsuspecting thing that doesn't know what they are getting into.

A note on Revlon and the issue of them using an 8 year old model to advertise their product. Point of fact may be that they are an American company, but a number of these ad campaigns are made and aired only in specific countries. So while they are American, they may not have in fact aired that campaign in the United States.

Companies make campaigns to suit their target audience, hence Maybelline has certain models that are rarely if ever seen in the United States, and others that are never seen outside the United States, (outside of fashion forums such as this).

My whole point in conclusion is that it's not one country or another that is at fault, it's the fashion community as an overall that needs to sit back and realize that shock isn't necessarily the bottom line, and that they need to stop and consider the sensibilities and consequences that these young girls and boys will face once they reach an age of majority and are no longer considered marketable or viable. They also need to consider what marketing these young children as being sexy does to men and women around the world struggling with body images. Something healthy and developed is a better image to send, but I guess time will tell.

I stand by my statement in regards to youth:

"When it stops being shocking and starts being boring then I pity mankind and their morality. When looking at young girls on the runway in various stages of undress is no longer shocking then we as humans should be reevaluating ourselves and our beliefs... There's a thin line between being a man and a monster, that's crossing the line in my opinion."

Layla

I agree with everything that´s been said on this one page (especially thanks to LMS for bringing out the history, which I totally forgot about, damn me) and pheno, good novel I know what you mean - I just wanted to point out that it doesn´t matter the country, it´s always about people and people are the same just everywhere.

I remember the generation of my mum, that used to get married at 18 and get pregnant some months following. And that was like only 30 years ago. My grand-grand mother? Like LMS said, when they were 18 and not married with one child, they were considered old hags.

I think that now the border lines are pushing far away - 30 and not having a children? It´s quite normal now. 40 year old women are now as attractive as any 25 year old. On the other hand, models are getting younger and younger. But one day it just has to stop. Maybe when those little girls would say "no" and come back when being 18. ALL of them

As to answer Sweet Lu - my bf says it´s because men are like good wine - the older it gets, the better But I don´t think so - it´s all about your selftrust - and men tend to have better selftrust than older women. And maybe it´s because they can have children like in any age - they aren´t bound to anything. And my personal opinion is, that if you want to be like a good wine, you have to have a really strong charisma. I´ve met women that were 60 years old and oozing charisma that no one could resist - it was partly because they knew how to age gracefully - with no work done. They loved every gray hair on their heads. They cherished every wrinkle. They were like peaceful trees in a wild forest, they got the whole life in their eyes.

Time will tell

I know this is a bit off topic, but why is it that as a woman gets older she is considered as losing her looks or becoming a hag; yet as men get older they are considered to look distinguished?

and at what point is it that a woman is considered too old to be sexy?

at close to 40 years old, Dita Von teese looks evey bit as good as these models in their 20's.

I happen to also find a lot of women 40s and up, both famous and in regular life too. I have a female friend in particular whose the youngest of at least four and decent looking herself, but her mother looks 5x better and when she used to pick her up she'd get more attention than her . But it probably gets its roots from (as little miss sunshine touched on in a different context) the fact that in the majority of human history and across cultures, youth for a woman was considered synonymous with the ability to have a lot of babies whereas age for a man could be considered synonymous with money and power. There were young guys with money or from wealthy families of course, but by average case, a younger woman or female is generally more likely to be able to have more babies whereas an older man would be more likely to have the means to take care of them. Sure many today see themselves as being beyond that line of thought, but its still prominent enough in the different standards with regard to age. Just look at a one commercial cycle and all the commercials for female anti-aging creams, lotions ect. And of course in general because of the greater pressure put on women in the area of looks in general and that they as a result put on themselves, the bar is much higher for women in general. Just compare what the average woman puts into her looks compared to what the average man does and we can see the difference in standard. And then back to the age thing, looking at actors in their 50s and up they can be out of shape and never show their body at all and still be considered 'sexy' whereas with most women 40s and up its more often than not in conjuction with A) Looking younger or B) 'wow! she's such and such age and has a body like that' lol.

Jennka, I always found that saying to be mroe true towards women myself.

and pheno, that was a very well thought and spoken sentiment and I totally agree with all that.

i think it speaks volumes about our society where the majorit of people feel that a model/actress is "over the hill" once they hit 30. i can think of plenty of actresses and models that are well into their 30's and 40's (and probably some in their 50's) that blow away the current young crowd. (first and foremost is Michelle Phiefer. taht woman will always look good, lolll)

but also, with age comes that sophistication and presence that make the odler men so distinguished.

But that is probably the problem, since women do stop wearing the short skirts and skin tight shirts and dressing like the teenie boppers and dress more like adults, that is a turn off for the majority of men. And i think it is a shame that some women feel the need to dress like they are still in their early 20's or get surgery to stop sagging or tuck in some unwanted weight.

but i do think this trend will be changing. and i think women like Phiefer and Demi Moore who still look great and appeal to men of alla ges are the start of this trend being reversed.

Great topic, Expreso

My opinion is simple - if it was me making the rules, girls under 18 would be banned from modeling I mean it seriously. I like new faces, and there are may girls who are wonderful and look older than they really are, but frankly, I feel like a pedo looking at them.

The other reason is, that I like women - I mean, WOMEN. Women that have powers in them because they are grown up and know their body well. I´ve never liked Gisele more than now, in her thirties. I like Karolina (Kurkova) more as she´s getting older, because she´s not so skinny now.

I can look up to women. But I can´t look up to girls, which are twice younger than me and I don´t even want to think about people working with such young girls

Links deleted. Please do not post links that are linked to advertising. Check BZ rules regarding this issue.

Edited by MauiKane

^what's up with the links to wedding gown things?

This thread is so hardcore!

azure, what´s in the video? I can´t hear the sound (my pc SUCKS).

My personal opinion is, that the older a woman gets, the more beautiful she is. I had classmates that were like hot hotter the hottest in my class when we were young. Now, most of them look worn and haggy-like. On the contrary, the classmates that were never really striking are getting more and more beautiful with every year.

I think you have to grow into yourself. And then you can be beautiful in any age.

jennka, that is such a true statement. some people are indeed late bloomers while others burn through their beauty by the time they are 20.

the main thing is that alot of women, as they get older, decide to not just let their looks go and work very hard to stay in shape and protect themselves (i.e.-staying away from sunbathing so not to wrinkle their skin). I think those are the women that get more beautiful as they get older. I have a friend that is in her mid 30's, yet you would swear she is 10 years younger than that she looks that young.

But, as with everything, some will take it to the extreme and want to stay at a certain weight they were when they were 20, but as long as they di not obsess over it or deny themselves the proper food, it does give them a goal to strive for and to keep themselves in good health and shape.

Phenobarbie, Jennka, Sweetlu and Joe, nice posts! (did I forget anyone else? )

My personal opinion is, that the older a woman gets, the more beautiful she is. I had classmates that were like hot hotter the hottest in my class when we were young. Now, most of them look worn and haggy-like. On the contrary, the classmates that were never really striking are getting more and more beautiful with every year.

I think you have to grow into yourself. And then you can be beautiful in any age.

Interesting you bring that up because I have noticed the same thing. The ´hotties´ rarely stay hot. I have a cousin who was a complete knockout at 16 (and she knew it too) and now she's 24 she's reduced to being merely average at best.

My aunt was just an averagely cute girl when she was young and now at 35 she outshines pretty much every teen and twenty-something in the family. She rarely uses makeup at all, she just has that natural beauty.

Also, what do you guys think about this? A model friend of mine said that she would probably look haggard when she got older because of all the layers of makeup she had to wear all the time for work. Also, her hair was breaking off from all the blowdrying, dyeing and hair styling products they did for shoots. So do you think starting modeling at an early age will age you quicker than living a normal life would? Just a random thought that popped up.

I think it can. not jsut with the makeup but with the demands of it: having to stay at a certain weight, the schedules, etc. That can takes it toll on anyone especially teens and young adults.

Plus it is a business that will jsut eat you up and spit yu out once you are done. They are always looking for the next big thing, and the rpessure to stay on top must be tremendous, and that as well can cause one to age a but quicker too. (let's face it, who wants to be a has been at age 25?)

The Revlon ad was 1988 with Tara, she was 8

Lauren, Tara, Rebecca, Hunter

I think the biggest problem with models in the 14-16 range is that you are denying them a normal childhood, no matter which way you look at it.

It would be much better for the industry and the women involved if they avoided using girls under the age of 18, but that's an utopia, I guess.

SS is right - the childhood. All children should have one. What childhood can have a girl who starts modeling from her 14 years?