Victoria's Secret Fashion Show 2014 (GENERAL DISCUSSION)

[phenobarbie]

Yes, the modeling industry still has a huge bias towards Caucasian models, thankfully it's diversifying but the fact remains that VS is no different then the rest of the industry it's a part of. It's a slow gradual shift, but it is happening. Unfortunately with any segment that has a racial bent if they put more then 3 ethnic girls in the segment it's automatically considered racist.

On that same note any of the Brazilians can be considered ethnic, and they are clearly spread throughout the shows. I think you're looking for more of an issue then there really is. There were 7-9 other girls who are considered ethnic, (IE. not Caucasian, not eastern European) and yet they are factored out of the equation because what? They aren't black, or Asian? When you look for a problem you will generally find a problem it doesn't mean it's actually there.

[brandie013]

^Already posted? The first pic looks like Doutzen's outfit that she described.

Image 1 is Lily D's Outfit.

Is it? The shape looks funny

I'm talking about the outfit not wings.

Ahh so the wings and outfit in that sketch are for 2 seperate looks.

[llekel]

I like Taylor Swift.. shes hotter now than she was last year.. and i was looking forward to seeing her again BUT... Just rewatched last years show.. With this being her second year in a row.. im worried it will be the Taylor show with models.

[toodarnhot]

I'm hoping that VS and Taylor have heard the criticism of her performance last year, and will change her act accordingly. 

[Clauds]

You are missing the point Pheno, is not about where models come from (Brasil, China, SA or whatever) but about how they look (which to most of people is white, black, asian or latina) and the way VS organizes the segment.

It doesnt matter if they cast 20 dark models, 10 asians and 10 arabs if they will all get thrown in the exotic/jungle/animal segment, that is still a stereotype.

[phenobarbie]

If that's what you want to believe. I'm tired of everyone looking for an ulterior or racist motive for everything. If they purposely left said ethnic models out of a segment that can have a racial bent then it's just as quote on quote racist as having included them. Nobody will every be satisfied by the issue, so to each their own.

[RafSecret]

 

Yes, the modeling industry still has a huge bias towards Caucasian models, thankfully it's diversifying but the fact remains that VS is no different then the rest of the industry it's a part of. It's a slow gradual shift, but it is happening. Unfortunately with any segment that has a racial bent if they put more then 3 ethnic girls in the segment it's automatically considered racist.

On that same note any of the Brazilians can be considered ethnic, and they are clearly spread throughout the shows. I think you're looking for more of an issue then there really is. There were 7-9 other girls who are considered ethnic, (IE. not Caucasian, not eastern European) and yet they are factored out of the equation because what? They aren't black, or Asian? When you look for a problem you will generally find a problem it doesn't mean it's actually there.

 

Ethnicity and race are two separate things. There are Brazilians who are white (like Alessandra, who has Polish and Italian ancestry, or Isabeli who has Italian ancestry), there are Brazilians who are multiracial (like Adriana, who has Caribbean, Swiss, Japanese, Portuguese, Native American and African heritage), there are Brazilians that are black (like Lais). I don't know how you define "ethnic", but if it's basically just someone that isn't from a European country or the US then no it doesn't automatically mean they're making the line up more diverse (as with Isabeli and Alessandra, since they're still white). VS has always had a vast array of ethnicities and nationalities, but they're still white models. 

[phenobarbie]

My definition of ethnic follows Websters pretty damn closely. I don't know about the rest of you, but I try and use words literally, not by what I want them to mean.

 

ethnic

 

[eth-nik]

adjective

1.

pertaining to or characteristic of a people, especially a group (ethnic group) sharing a common and distinctive culture, religion, language, or the like.

2.

referring to the origin, classification, characteristics, etc., of such groups.

3.

being a member of an ethnic group, especially of a group that is a minority within a larger society:

ethnic Chinese in San Francisco.

4.

of, pertaining to, or characteristic of members of such a group.

5.

belonging to or deriving from the cultural, racial, religious, or linguistic traditions of a people or country:

ethnic dances.

6.

Obsolete. pagan; heathen.

noun

7.

a member of an ethnic group.

 

 

Every region of the world is filled with different ethnic groups. To insinuate that being white/eastern european/caucasion doesn't make you ethnic is incorrect, but it's very common misconception. Guess it goes with that whole "reverse racism" issue.

 

[saudade]

^ ^Yes, the majority of Brazilian models that have worked for VS (and the vast majority of Brazil's most successful models) are from the three southern-most, European-heavy states of the country.  Most are either German or Italian or both. Gisele/Raquel and Heidi are ethnically closer to one another than Isabelli and Emanuela.

 

 

 

Every region of the world is filled with different ethnic groups. To insinuate that being white/eastern european/caucasion doesn't make you ethnic is incorrect, but it's very common misconception. Guess it goes with that whole "reverse racism" issue.

 

 

 

That actually illustrates the fact that "ethnic" is usually applied to certain under-represented groups, often in an otherizing fashion, while ethnic groups like Germans, Italians, English, Irish, etc are often treated as the "norm". This happens all of the time in the U.S. and other formally-colonized countries.

 

Back to the show, I actually would welcome a Karlie opening, and I'm not even a fan of hers for VS .That said, I don't think Behati would be as bad as some seem to think she'd be

[shver]

^^^ agree! I have never really been a fan of Karlie for VS, but her walk is very powerful, and would be great to open the show.

[RafSecret]

Every region of the world is filled with different ethnic groups. To insinuate that being white/eastern european/caucasion doesn't make you ethnic is incorrect, but it's very common misconception. Guess it goes with that whole "reverse racism" issue.

I'm confused by what your point is though? White is a race. You can be ethnically different, but you are still racially white, and despite this, you can still relate to them because of similar features (my ethnicity has not been represented by VS, but I can most closely identify to Alessandra because of my features). But that's not the problem with VS, their problem is their lack of racial diversity because they don't have enough Black or Asian models (amongst others) that are represented. 

[phenobarbie]

That's like saying all Latino's are the same, or that all Black people are the same. And if you scroll up to the top of the page I addressed the issue of VS not being racially diverse, it's a symptom of the industry they are in, not necessarily of them in itself.

I'm tired of the argument that blond haired blue eyed girls all look the same. That white people regardless of the region they are from are all similar. Irish people look different then Russian's. Italians look different then Swedish people, etc, etc, etc. And on top of that I'm tired of the old adage that makes it okay for people to call Caucasian or people of European descent white, but if you say someone is black, or yellow or red, (all descriptions of the undertones of their skin color) it's racist.

 

Regardless, the point I was making, that has been deviated from slightly is that just because 4 girls of color are in a segment does not mean that the company is being racist. No one is taking into consideration color palettes, pattern/prints and what they look good on.

[saudade]

Just curious, why did you mention that "any of the Brazilians could be considered ethnic" when, as you recently pointed out, everyone is ethnic? I'm not trying to be combative or belabor the point, I'm just interested in your rationale in pointing to them when you could say the same thing about the Americans or any of the other nationalities.

[Laissima]

Just wait for all the Asian/Black models to get thrown in Exotic Travelers

That's what happened in Wild Things a few years ago...

 

ETA: sorry, didn't see the replies afterwards. But I definitely think it's no coincidence when 4 out of the 6 "exotic" girls are in that segment and on 1 of them appears in Country girls

[Kevork89]

I don't think VS are racist in any way. Yes they should be more racially diverse in their main lineup but I don't think they are racist. I do however think that what Claudia is saying makes sense because they cast certain girls for certain segments based on if they would suit that segment or suit the clothes. They've said that in castings videos. Like Eniko looks great and all that but it's clear she would fit the fairy section. So in terms of Exotic Traveler they would have selected certain girls for that section because they fit the exotic look. While I don't think its racist, but they should at least be in other segments so it's not like they're cast just for that segment. Also the whole blonde hair blue eyed thing all looking the same is stupid. I hate when people say that. But it's never seen as bad but if someone said black girls or asian girls look the same then it's racist. I think race is a tricky subject.

[phenobarbie]

Just curious, why did you mention that "any of the Brazilians could be considered ethnic" when, as you recently pointed out, everyone is ethnic? I'm not trying to be combative or belabor the point, I'm just interested in your rationale in pointing to them when you could say the same thing about the Americans or any of the other nationalities.

Everyone is ethnic, more obviously to individuals who are not part of their "ethnic group", but for the sake of the debate at that point, I simply belabored the point that lumping the Brazilians into the "Caucasian group" was to some extent incorrect. Personally I do consider them ethnic, hence why they were initially used in the argument. Brazilians had been spread throughout the show, clearly being of a different ethnic background then the quote on quote white girls and yet it was discounted because they are not for lack of a better rationale dark enough to be considered ethnic to some people.

[WishingWell]

Nothing new or interesting in this article, but nice stills from the casting video.  

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2844681/Every-year-fashion-gets-competitive-Victoria-s-Secret-releases-scenes-footage-cut-throat-castings.html

[saudade]

 

Just curious, why did you mention that "any of the Brazilians could be considered ethnic" when, as you recently pointed out, everyone is ethnic? I'm not trying to be combative or belabor the point, I'm just interested in your rationale in pointing to them when you could say the same thing about the Americans or any of the other nationalities.

Everyone is ethnic, more obviously to individuals who are not part of their "ethnic group", but for the sake of the debate at that point, I simply belabored the point that lumping the Brazilians into the "Caucasian group" was to some extent incorrect. Personally I do consider them ethnic, hence why they were initially used in the argument. Brazilians had been spread throughout the show, clearly being of a different ethnic background then the quote on quote white girls and yet it was discounted because they are not for lack of a better rationale dark enough to be considered ethnic to some people.

 

Thanks for replying. I'm guessing that some people interpreted you using them as an example as you suggesting that them simply being Brazilian made them ethnic/racial minorities , whereas Ale, Isabelli, Matha, Flavia, Fabiana, and Izabel are all of ethnically German,Italian, and/or Polish and therefore racially considered white like the majority of models in the show.

 

 Getting off  of that tangent, I'm saddened that neither Emanuela nor Edita will be in this year's show. Emanuela's body is amazingly toned- and not in an Izabel way- while Edita continues to sizzle in every thing she does. Both of them are radiant to me and I wished they still worked with VS regularly. I'm happy with the overall cast, but some of these selections have me scratching my head. And I would have loved to see Jessica Hart return and have to interact with both Natasha and Taylor

[phenobarbie]

I don't think VS are racist in any way. Yes they should be more racially diverse in their main lineup but I don't think they are racist. I do however think that what Claudia is saying makes sense because they cast certain girls for certain segments based on if they would suit that segment or suit the clothes. They've said that in castings videos. Like Eniko looks great and all that but it's clear she would fit the fairy section. So in terms of Exotic Traveler they would have selected certain girls for that section because they fit the exotic look. While I don't think its racist, but they should at least be in other segments so it's not like they're cast just for that segment. Also the whole blonde hair blue eyed thing all looking the same is stupid. I hate when people say that. But it's never seen as bad but if someone said black girls or asian girls look the same then it's racist. I think race is a tricky subject.

Casting certain girls for certain outfits or segments because they suit said outfits or segments does not make them racist, nor does it necessarily mean they are stereotyping them, and that is the point. Certain colors look better on different skin tones. Prints look different on different body types, and VS does to some degree, (with various levels of success) try to make each segment in their show, (by year) have a different feel to it.

But in reference to the original statement, out of the 4 "ethnic girls" from wild things, 2 of them walked in other segments as well. Liu and Lais both has second outfits. Selita and Emanuela did not. However that was Selita's last year and Emanuela only received one outfit the following year as well, though to be fair Emanuela's outfit in Wild Things did make me blink a little and shake my head. 

[ILUVAdrianaLima]

How about a little humor to break things up. Little guy almost had it