Jimmy Changa Posted November 30, 2005 Share Posted November 30, 2005 whether it is violence depends upon the context and the intentions Thank you for making my point. yes but in the case of smacking your intention is to elcicit pain in the child, correct? to elicit the pain you must cause damage, correct? thus your initial goal it to cause damage to achieve your overall goal of eliciting pain, correct? so it is violence it seems, correct? can i go to bed now? no There is no damage. There is no intention of damage. There should never be. Pain in and of itself is not damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red_ed Posted November 30, 2005 Share Posted November 30, 2005 and I think by treating women and children in a different manner (with regards to abuse and punishment) is correct...which is actually what I'm trying to argue...or is it? this is getting silly it's 3am . . . anyways, i'll proceed . . . but in an equal society people shouldn't be treated in such a different manner with regards to violence . . . are you suggesting that i would be allowed to spank someone who lacked the same cognitive ability as 'most adults' then? . . . well if you're related to them then go ahead, if you're not, then you're looking at a big law suit . That field of people which you spank would probably include senile grandparents, mentally retarded people and children. And once again, as much as you'd like to think we live in an equal society, we don't Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red_ed Posted November 30, 2005 Share Posted November 30, 2005 no There is no damage. There is no intention of damage. There should never be. Pain in and of itself is not damage. also Jimmy wont let you go to bed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Posted November 30, 2005 Share Posted November 30, 2005 whether it is violence depends upon the context and the intentions Thank you for making my point. yes but in the case of smacking your intention is to elcicit pain in the child, correct? to elicit the pain you must cause damage, correct? thus your initial goal it to cause damage to achieve your overall goal of eliciting pain, correct? so it is violence it seems, correct? can i go to bed now? no There is no damage. There is no intention of damage. There should never be. Pain in and of itself is not damage. ways to do it without damage would be like to pepper-spray the kid or inject the juvenile with bradykinin or something . . . you wouldn't need to physically assault the kid . . . to elicit the pain you damage the kid and you know it so subconciously you are aiming to damage the kid so that you can achieve your primary objective. some people have different motivation for spanking (and no, i don't mean that in a kinky manner) or smacking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Posted November 30, 2005 Share Posted November 30, 2005 no There is no damage. There is no intention of damage. There should never be. Pain in and of itself is not damage. also Jimmy wont let you go to bed this is sucking so bad but i feel that i have a moral duty to reply . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red_ed Posted November 30, 2005 Share Posted November 30, 2005 Admit it, you're Jimmy's b'tch now :evil: EDIT: you should go back and read the 2nd post of this page in case you missed it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Posted November 30, 2005 Share Posted November 30, 2005 and I think by treating women and children in a different manner (with regards to abuse and punishment) is correct...which is actually what I'm trying to argue...or is it? this is getting silly it's 3am . . . anyways, i'll proceed . . . but in an equal society people shouldn't be treated in such a different manner with regards to violence . . . are you suggesting that i would be allowed to spank someone who lacked the same cognitive ability as 'most adults' then? . . . well if you're related to them then go ahead, if you're not, then you're looking at a big law suit . That field of people which you spank would probably include senile grandparents, mentally retarded people and children. And once again, as much as you'd like to think we live in an equal society, we don't why not try and make it equal then? would you have been happy with apartheid or some other sort of open discrimination or would you have gone the extra mile to have rid society of such inequality? why not have a consistent code to attempt to bring about this equality then. at least when it comes to something like violence, 'murder', etc . . . i would greatly advise one to read "causing death and saving lives"-jonathan glover Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Posted November 30, 2005 Share Posted November 30, 2005 one of the reasons why the kids shouldn't be smacked could be because they "aren't fully developed" and are more impressionable and will see beatings when someone is 'naughty' as the norm or an acceptable thing to do. yes, parents are 'supposed' to teach their kids what is right and wrong but i don't see why that needs to be done through the medium of violence. as i said previously. violence is violence and in this case the only difference is the person at the end of the violence and the acceptance of the violence by society. (i should point out that i was using violence against women as an example. if you seriously think that i think that "men are legally superior to women" then shame on you. i just cited that as an example. i could have given an example where wives beat up their husbands. they had a documentary on that on TV a while back ) in terms of courts, i think that there should be more leniency towards very yound kids 'cos they may not necessarily know the difference between what is right or wrong and so need to be given a chance. i also think that society should give people a chance and try and rehabilitate individuals who have strayed and so sentences or penalties awarded to younger persons should be more lenient. at the same time though i don't think that penalising a little lad by slapping him or whatever will instill a strong moral sense of 'right' and 'wrong' in the little chap. it merely teaches the little guy that if you get caught then you get a slap . . . no worries about the rhetorical questions. i like 'em . . . Not saying that punishment is necessarily the only method of teaching, but it can be a useful method. Also if "violence is violence" then "murder is murder". What the hell is manslaughter? Its just murder, whether it was intentional or not. There's no need to differentiate between accidentally killing someone and intentionally doing it because it still results in the death of a person Can't remember what else I said. Shall address later when my head ain't pounding i take your point to an extent. i have acknowledged that intentions are a factor in whether something is considered violence. but if you intention is too elicit pain as i believe that someone said it is in the case of smacking then your intention also has to be to damage because it is the damage which elicits the pain (unless you just inject with Bradykinin - the most nociceptive substance known to man. that's sweet). man slaughter applies to random stuff such a negligence as well though as i have said intentions are a factor but in the case of smacking this doesn't really help 'cos it would license beatings as long as the parent's intention was just to elicit pain . . . nonetheless this argument is becoming very drawn out and i'm afraid that i must retire to bed . . . *sigh* I believe you don't have the right idea about punishment. Talking only about positive punishment, the idea of it is not solely to elicit pain, but rather to elicit pain in such a manner that one will associate it with the experience in question and form a bad impression of it to help prevent the situation from happening again. There is also a moral norm which we adhere to as to how much pain should be elicited. Going overboard and beating your child is just abuse. I'll admit there is a fine line there, but on the whole I trust people to punish appropriately and not cause extensive harm to their children. it doesn't work like that though. the little kid just thinks if i get caught then i get smacked. therefore let's be sly and not get caught . . . it is the fine line which is the problem because people have different perceptions of what they can and can't do with regards to smacking and about how far they can go . . . like Ed with bat covered in nails Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Posted November 30, 2005 Share Posted November 30, 2005 Admit it, you're Jimmy's b'tch now :evil: NEVER!!! . . . i really need to sleep. see you later . . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red_ed Posted November 30, 2005 Share Posted November 30, 2005 why not try and make it equal then? would you have been happy with apartheid or some other sort of open discrimination or would you have gone the extra mile to have rid society of such inequality? why not have a consistent code to attempt to bring about this equality then. at least when it comes to something like violence, 'murder', etc . . . i would greatly advise one to read "causing death and saving lives"-jonathan glover Believing that society is not equal does not mean that I believe in Apartheid or something or rather We, as a society (I hope) are trying to make things as fair as possible so there's nothing to whinge about there. It's just that there will never be equality. It's like suggesting that men and women compete in the same events for the Olympics. Equal, but is it fair? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red_ed Posted November 30, 2005 Share Posted November 30, 2005 it doesn't work like that though. the little kid just thinks if i get caught then i get smacked. therefore let's be sly and not get caught . . . it is the fine line which is the problem because people have different perceptions of what they can and can't do with regards to smacking and about how far they can go . . . like Ed with bat covered in nails bat covered in nails :| Anyway, the only reason punishment doesn't work is because people don't know how to use it and also it doesn't generalise across different contexts. Behavioural theory I believe, aims not at the conscious, but the sub-sonscious. And most people don't push the line, they make punishments appropriate. Now you're just making parents look like evil monsters that don't care about their children. Some don't :| Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red_ed Posted November 30, 2005 Share Posted November 30, 2005 Admit it, you're Jimmy's b'tch now :evil: NEVER!!! . . . i really need to sleep. see you later . . . . Seeyoubye! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Posted November 30, 2005 Share Posted November 30, 2005 why not try and make it equal then? would you have been happy with apartheid or some other sort of open discrimination or would you have gone the extra mile to have rid society of such inequality? why not have a consistent code to attempt to bring about this equality then. at least when it comes to something like violence, 'murder', etc . . . i would greatly advise one to read "causing death and saving lives"-jonathan glover Believing that society is not equal does not mean that I believe in Apartheid or something or rather We, as a society (I hope) are trying to make things as fair as possible so there's nothing to whinge about there. It's just that there will never be equality. It's like suggesting that men and women compete in the same events for the Olympics. Equal, but is it fair? i know you don't believe in apartheid. i was gonna say something about Nelson Mandela and possible terrorist activities but i couldn't be bothered. so you claim . . . . you cynic you . . . . it is fair 'cos you have to encourage the ladies otherwise they would suck (believe it or not i don't believe the majority of stuff that i've spouted for the last however many pages. i'm just answering a way that i hope can kinda make the other person consider their stand-point on issues or possibly just to annoy people but who knows ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red_ed Posted November 30, 2005 Share Posted November 30, 2005 why not try and make it equal then? would you have been happy with apartheid or some other sort of open discrimination or would you have gone the extra mile to have rid society of such inequality? why not have a consistent code to attempt to bring about this equality then. at least when it comes to something like violence, 'murder', etc . . . i would greatly advise one to read "causing death and saving lives"-jonathan glover Believing that society is not equal does not mean that I believe in Apartheid or something or rather We, as a society (I hope) are trying to make things as fair as possible so there's nothing to whinge about there. It's just that there will never be equality. It's like suggesting that men and women compete in the same events for the Olympics. Equal, but is it fair? i know you don't believe in apartheid. i was gonna say something about Nelson Mandela and possible terrorist activities but i couldn't be bothered. so you claim . . . . you cynic you . . . . it is fair 'cos you have to encourage the ladies otherwise they would suck (believe it or not i don't believe the majority of stuff that i've spouted for the last however many pages. i'm just answering a way that i hope can kinda make the other person consider their stand-point on issues or possibly just to annoy people but who knows ) I do it all the time. yes... I'm "playing" the Devil's advocate... "playing".... yes... :evil: Anyway, it's a good exercise for the brain, and you do make a few good points though also, you want the ladies to suck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Posted November 30, 2005 Share Posted November 30, 2005 it doesn't work like that though. the little kid just thinks if i get caught then i get smacked. therefore let's be sly and not get caught . . . it is the fine line which is the problem because people have different perceptions of what they can and can't do with regards to smacking and about how far they can go . . . like Ed with bat covered in nails bat covered in nails :| Anyway, the only reason punishment doesn't work is because people don't know how to use it and also it doesn't generalise across different contexts. Behavioural theory I believe, aims not at the conscious, but the sub-sonscious. And most people don't push the line, they make punishments appropriate. Now you're just making parents look like evil monsters that don't care about their children. Some don't :| monster - an imaginary or legendary creature, such as a centaur or Harpy, that combines parts from various animal or human forms some people's parents . . . *looks at Ed* . . . are like that and so are their children sorry that was harsh. apologies. btw, yes i am just messing about. i am not seriously debating whether smacking turns parents in to harpies or centaurs or whatever although that would kinda add to the smacking experience . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Posted November 30, 2005 Share Posted November 30, 2005 also, you want the ladies to suck it's better than me sucking . . . but was there a double-meaning there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Posted November 30, 2005 Share Posted November 30, 2005 I do it all the time. yes... I'm "playing" the Devil's advocate... "playing".... yes... :evil:Anyway, it's a good exercise for the brain, and you do make a few good points though i was just trying to a thorn pretty much . . . i saw soooooo many oppurtunities to 'take me down' in the process though . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red_ed Posted November 30, 2005 Share Posted November 30, 2005 monster - an imaginary or legendary creature, such as a centaur or Harpy, that combines parts from various animal or human forms some people's parents . . . *looks at Ed* . . . are like that and so are their children sorry that was harsh. apologies. btw, yes i am just messing about. i am not seriously debating whether smacking turns parents in to harpies or centaurs or whatever although that would kinda add to the smacking experience . . . If only smacking my kid got him some wings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red_ed Posted November 30, 2005 Share Posted November 30, 2005 also, you want the ladies to suck it's better than me sucking . . . but was there a double-meaning there? me? never! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Changa Posted November 30, 2005 Share Posted November 30, 2005 whether it is violence depends upon the context and the intentions Thank you for making my point. yes but in the case of smacking your intention is to elcicit pain in the child, correct? to elicit the pain you must cause damage, correct? thus your initial goal it to cause damage to achieve your overall goal of eliciting pain, correct? so it is violence it seems, correct? can i go to bed now? no There is no damage. There is no intention of damage. There should never be. Pain in and of itself is not damage. ways to do it without damage would be like to pepper-spray the kid or inject the juvenile with bradykinin or something . . . you wouldn't need to physically assault the kid . . . to elicit the pain you damage the kid and you know it so subconciously you are aiming to damage the kid so that you can achieve your primary objective. some people have different motivation for spanking (and no, i don't mean that in a kinky manner) or smacking. pepper spray can indeed cause damage...you're going off the deep end again. This accusation of a subconscious aim to cause damage is a complete insult and way off base. The aim is to teach and to train. Go to bed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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