November 9, 20204 yr 5 minutes ago, Cult Icon said: Pretty much that's what the US Trump supporter wants- a strong leader that can get things done and reverse the economic, social, and political stagnation in the US. Basically a Putin or a Lee Kuan Yew type. This is not historically unusual in other countries and some have been successful particularly those in East Asia. Having Biden is not to satisfy the Trump supporter. To me the politician that was the most authoritarian in the US in recent history was Robert Moses who was the master builder of New York for several decades. The real mystery to me is are there any genius politicians of the caliber of Lee Kuan Yew/Putin in DC? Seems doubtful if a bunch of demented losers are all we can raise to the top. Well despite Trump being quite weak, he has surrounded himself with the worst the US has to offer. Barr has disappeared, there was Steve Bannon, and probably the worst, Stephen Miller. I think Lee Kuan Yew and Putin are very different people. I think if you are looking for somebody who is a smart amoral politician, that title would go to Mitch McConnell.
November 9, 20204 yr Author 7 minutes ago, Sensual said: Well despite Trump being quite weak, he has surrounded himself with the worst the US has to offer. Barr has disappeared, there was Steve Bannon, and probably the worst, Stephen Miller. Trump and his friends have been a bunch of losers/idiots for the most part. Also home grown right wing militants has been pretty tepid for compared to other countries and earlier US history. Besides random killings and plots there hasn't been a division of Timonthy McVeighs. They had 8 years to make concentrated and aggressive efforts to kill Barack Obama and "save America" but they didn't take action. I think that decades of very soft living, pacification, and infinite entertainment has really removed the desire of right wing men to fight and die for their beliefs. Right wing Americans are armchair warriors and all talk and no action, not like Arabs who have lots of people that want to fight and die for what they believe in.
November 9, 20204 yr Author 40 minutes ago, Sensual said: a smart amoral politician, that title would go to Mitch McConnell. This hypothetical person would to me be a mixture of LBJ (DC operator, Senate Majority leader, hugely successful for 2 decades) + Robert Moses (vision and knowledge of nation building) + rabble rousing like Trump. Trump was good at rabble rousing but poor at practical politics. Adolf Hitler was good in all areas.
November 9, 20204 yr Author 23 hours ago, Enrico_sw said: Trump wasn't elected because he was a billionaire. I did not claim that he was elected solely because he was a "billionaire".... but like Bloomberg being a billionaire gave Trump financial backup when he needed to bankroll his campaign. As I pointed out 4 years ago on this thread, he and his team (especially Bannon) understood the hungry mindset of the right wing American and successfully gamed/conned the system by appealing to their inner desires and immense disappointment over the massive failures of the US in the past decade and a half. This is remarkably similar, at an emotional level, to the existential crisis in Europe which fueled fascism- particularly in Germany and Italy- in the 1920s-1930s. At the basic level Trump presented himself as an DC "outsider" who could clean up the Swamp and make America Great Again. He didn't even have to explain how he planned to do this. Eventually even the mainstream conservative media had to support the president elect with 4 years of made up stories and excuses. The fringe Alt Right media, small and underground even in 2016 exploded in influence and made up and populated an ideological fantasy world on a daily basis. Basically Trump and Bannon understood the effective use of propaganda and mass manipulation. They understand the existential crisis of their supporters and they understand right wing ideology. Twitter was useful in metaphoric communication to his followers. However once in office what Trump did not have a clue about was how to govern.. Pretty much confirms the common-sense hunch that a novice politician would be completely incompetent dealmaking and operating in DC. You need to be part of the Swamp to operate in the Swamp- like Joe Biden who was the dealmaker behind Obama's presidency. With Trump gone this leaves a vacuum. At the very least the Trump experience demonstrates that empty but skillful rabble rousing is sufficient to win a presidential election. Governing is an entirely different story.
November 9, 20204 yr 12 hours ago, Sensual said: We know what Biden's program is, he has his policies on his website. And with the recent victory speech that also gives an idea of what his program is, with fighting COVID coming first. I bet that less than 1% of the people who voted for Biden read what he had to say. "Orange man bad" was his program. He won't be held accountable anyway, because he's supported by those who "matters": big tech, the media (except a handful of outlets), Hollywood (which shouldn't be a political voice, but they are). As for fighting Covid, Western countries are the worst. Lockdown and restrictions are the worst strategies. The most successful countries are in Asia (Taiwan, South Korea, etc.) and they rely on massive testing campaign and isolation of positive people (not everybody). The West is shooting itself in the foot with the lockdowns. California is one of the worst examples. 12 hours ago, Sensual said: Make no mistake 71 million people still voted for Trump and at worst know who they voted for, or they are indifferent and can stomach authoritarianism. What's autoritarian in what he did? Authoritarinism is when the media, the press, the cultural world are all rooting for the power. And in the US, they're all (or nearly all) rooting for the left / far left. Who's talking about lists today? AOC. Let's not forget that the 20th century had plenty of very authoritarian left regimes (USSR, Cambodia, CCP, etc.) 12 hours ago, Sensual said: Its going to be democracy vs authoritarianism for a while Yes, I definitely agree with that. And with AOC starting to demand for lists (on twitter, the censorship platform), I'm worried that the authoritarians are coming to power. Democracy hasn't won IMHO.
November 9, 20204 yr 12 hours ago, Cult Icon said: Pretty much that's what the US Trump supporter wants- a strong leader that can get things done and reverse the economic, social, and political stagnation in the US. Basically a Putin or a Lee Kuan Yew type. This is not historically unusual in other countries and some have been successful particularly those in East Asia. Having Biden is not to satisfy the Trump supporter. Strong leader doesn't mean an autoritarian regime. You need the press and the cultural milieu to really be authoritarian. In the West, the left has applied Gramsci's principles: the battle for cultural hegemony, and, they won. Trump may appear strong, but Big Tech, the mainstream media, Hollywood and many other cultural industries all rooted for the left. That's not what I call a strong power. If CNN was Russian and made a single bad comment on Putin by mistake, they'd be licking his boots the next day to say they're sorry. The Left is not good or bad per se. Same for the Right. It's just that when an ideology becomes a monopoly, terrible things tend to happen (like making lists).
November 9, 20204 yr 9 hours ago, Enrico_sw said: What's autoritarian in what he did? Are you kidding? The guy spends entire time refusing to believe he lost the election. He's called for the mass imprisonment of his political opponents, he rages on about the media and can't handle sitting for a simple 20 minute interview. He spends the entire time saying half the country is involved in some plot the take over the country to install a socialist dictatorship. He's associated himself with people such as Steve Bannon, who has recently called for the beheading of Dr. Fauci, and the director of the FBI. He appointed an attorney general with William Barr who religiously worshipped authority figures, punched hippies in his youth, and gave officers coffee who shot them when they protested, he believes in centralizing authority around the President and was the one who cleared protestors in front a church so Trump could have a photo op holding a bible upside down. Trump called Hispanics "Drug dealers, criminals, rapists," and along with all his horrible policies, he instituted the child separation policy via Stephen Miller. Miller also supports ending practically all migration to the US, stopping the resettlement of refugees, and crippling American higher education by denying visas to students. This is just the tip of the iceberg and Donald Trump has allowed the worst of America to thrive, in contrast to previous Republicans such as McCain which had to defend his political opponent too many times from paranoid racist republicans. If you can't figure out how he is authoritarian, then you don't know what authoritarianism is. I'm done here.
November 10, 20204 yr 13 hours ago, Enrico_sw said: What's autoritarian in what he did? Everything? All his strategies follow the lead of authoritarian regimes. Lying, always lying; creating conspiracy theories in order to point to an enemy and create and "Us vs Them" situation: creating the notion of a "menacing enemy" that conspires to destroy the country; constantly insulting and mocking every adversary of his, not only as a candidate but as president; inciting violence from his followers; to keep on holding rallies for his fans/supporters even after being elected; creating a cult of personality around him; a sensationalist use of some form of mass media to achieve all of this, and on this Twitter in particular and social media in general greatly helped him; his constant attack on the media that disagrees with him and then posing as a victim of them is typical of authoritarians as well; his refusal to accept defeat; him placing doubts on the electoral system months in advance to now yell "Fraud!" without presenting any evidence about it... that permanently belligerent and dividing attitude, and so on. This guy throws mud in everything he touches so he can gain an advantage. It's what he does. The guy is trash and it's the better for both the US and the world that he'll be out of power. As I see it, the main reason he didn't go fully authoritarian is because the US, thankfully, still has strong enough institutions to prevent him from doing so. 13 hours ago, Cult Icon said: This is remarkably similar, at an emotional level, to the existential crisis in Europe which fueled fascism- particularly in Germany and Italy- in the 1920s-1930s. I've been saying this (not here because what's the point) since Trump's first campaign... awfully similar.
November 10, 20204 yr 9 hours ago, Stormbringer said: The guy is trash and it's the better for both the US and the world that he'll be out of power. Look, I understand you don't like him and that's perfectly fine, I'm not too fond of him myself, he's crude, vulgar, and all these things, but I don't think he's authoritarian. Also, I think that some of his opponents are way worse. I hope we can civilly exchange in a constructive manner on this topic, like we usually do, because I don't think that the media reports on all this are fair enough, and that bothers me. 9 hours ago, Stormbringer said: Lying, always lying; Sure, he lied and that's terrible. But the media lied, big tech lied and censored, left politicians lie. That's terrible, I'd prefer to be in a world where nobody lies, but unfortunately, lying is a common trait these days. 9 hours ago, Stormbringer said: creating conspiracy theories I know some of his supporters did share some conspiracies and that's terrible; him, I don't remember any (but it's possible). On the other hand, I can see that his opponents promote many conspiracy theories like the patriarchy (one of the craziest theories ever and one that leads to massive distrust in society), the supposed Russian collusion and, more generally, all the identity politics that are based on theories that cause hatred and division. 9 hours ago, Stormbringer said: creating conspiracy theories in order to point to an enemy and create and "Us vs Them" situation: creating the notion of a "menacing enemy" that conspires to destroy the country I agree that "us vs them" ideologies are terrible, but that's exactly what his opponents are promoting. The patriarchy is an "us vs them" theory. Identity politics in general create an "us vs them" situation and these politics are promoted by the far left and the far right. The difference is that, thankfully, the far right has no voice in the media. But the far left is overwhelmingly present in the media. You hear about their theories every day. 9 hours ago, Stormbringer said: a sensationalist use of some form of mass media to achieve all of this Honestly, I don't see that. But I remember the media protecting antifas that burnt cities and saying "peaceful protests". The mass media hates him (most outlets are left leaning except for a handful of news outlets). IMHO, Trump is a co-creation of the media, he's the scarecrow that helped them boost their sales by telling tales of the dangerous orange monster. In an authoritarian regime, the leader needs the media, but he didn't have them. 9 hours ago, Stormbringer said: his constant attack on the media that disagrees with him and then posing as a victim of them is typical of authoritarians as well It's not typical of authoritarians, because in authoritarians regimes, the press colludes with the leader. So, the leader never has to insult the press. In China, a 100% of the press is pro Xi. Same for the Russian press and Putin. 9 hours ago, Stormbringer said: his refusal to accept defeat There are no defeats in authoritarian regimes, because there are no elections (or they are masquerades). 9 hours ago, Stormbringer said: him placing doubts on the electoral system months in advance to now yell "Fraud!" without presenting any evidence about it... The electoral system in the US is archaic. In many states you don't need an ID to vote. That's crazy. Of course, I agree that it's not particularly against him, but still that's archaic. 9 hours ago, Stormbringer said: and on this Twitter in particular and social media in general greatly helped him Twitter kept censoring him and his partisans. Twitter has a huge political bias. 9 hours ago, Stormbringer said: that permanently belligerent and dividing attitude, and so on. One of the first US president that didn't start a war (for around 50 years). As for dividing people, look at those who make lists (like AOC).
November 10, 20204 yr California is the fifth biggest economy in the world and you don't need any document to vote. That's really archaic to me.
November 10, 20204 yr 23 hours ago, Cult Icon said: As I pointed out 4 years ago on this thread, he and his team (especially Bannon) understood the hungry mindset of the right wing American and successfully gamed/conned the system by appealing to their inner desires and immense disappointment over the massive failures of the US in the past decade and a half. This is remarkably similar, at an emotional level, to the existential crisis in Europe which fueled fascism- particularly in Germany and Italy- in the 1920s-1930s. Fascist regimes came to power in parliamentary systems that often times struggled with very harsh economic depression. Their underlying hateful ideologies were promoted by a fair share of the press. Look at which ideologies are massively promoted by the press nowadays (I'm not talking about the handful of news outlets that don't go with the flow, but the majority of the media). Look at wich ideologies the big oligopolies (like big tech) promote. That's a big indicator of where the totalitarian tendencies are stronger. I may be wrong, but we'll see.
November 10, 20204 yr 21 hours ago, Sensual said: The guy spends entire time refusing to believe he lost the election. Yes, he's wrong to do so. But at least, it's a country with elections, that's not authoritarian. And the press will never let him contest the election. It's done, he has lost, don't worry. 21 hours ago, Sensual said: He's called for the mass imprisonment of his political opponents I have never seen him say that. Any link to share? On the other hand, I see that politicians like AOC are starting to talk about making lists. 21 hours ago, Sensual said: he rages on about the media There's too much uniformity in the media. Uniformity leads to monopoly, which leads to a weakening of democracy. 21 hours ago, Sensual said: can't handle sitting for a simple 20 minute interview Yes, he has a choleric personality and he should be less aggresive. But that doesn't make him an authoritarian. 21 hours ago, Sensual said: He's associated himself with people such as Steve Bannon, who has recently called for the beheading of Dr. Fauci, and the director of the FBI He was wrong to say that. BTW, I'm still waiting for Twitter to ban the French feminist that said "we should erradicate men", because that's hate speech as well. 21 hours ago, Sensual said: Trump called Hispanics "Drug dealers, criminals, rapists," IIRC, he was talking about MS-13. 21 hours ago, Sensual said: he instituted the child separation policy via Stephen Miller. Miller also supports ending practically all migration to the US, stopping the resettlement of refugees, and crippling American higher education by denying visas to students. My understanding is that the same policy was applied during the previous administration. I may be wrong, so feel free to give more details. Immigration is a difficult topic. There are pros and cons. It's not all good or all bad. There are lots of grey areas. You talk about the education system in the US: well I think it's being crippled by affirmative action, that led to discriminatory policies against Asian migrants. We don't have this system in France, and I hope it never comes here, because it fuels lots of resentment and discrimination. 21 hours ago, Sensual said: If you can't figure out how he is authoritarian, then you don't know what authoritarianism is. Well, I try to draw conclusions based on evidence, and here it's very thin. You can dislike his policies, and you have every right to do so, but that's not enough to call him authoritarian. I've studied authoritarian regimes throughout history (both far right and far left regimes) and Trumpland was far from one. Mostly because the press is free (and massively against him), the elections are free too and there are two parties (not one). Sure, it's not a perfect democracy, and people yell at each other all the time, but it's not China.
November 10, 20204 yr I hope debate will still be allowed in Bidenland USA. Debate is the essence of democracy. I'm sure Biden is a good guy, but some of the people behind him are worrying (e.g. AOC).
November 11, 20204 yr 13 hours ago, Enrico_sw said: Look, I understand you don't like him and that's perfectly fine, I'm not too fond of him myself, he's crude, vulgar, and all these things, but I don't think he's authoritarian. Also, I think that his opponents are way worse. I hope we can civilly exchange in a constructive manner on this topic, like we usually do, because I don't think that the media reports on all this are fair enough, and that bothers me. I really don't think his opponents are "way worse" than he is. Just as bad? Maybe? But this guy is a true danger to democracy (or hopefully "was" from now on) with the way he carries himself and does politics. Then again, bout his opponents, I'm merely seeing this from the outside Are there parallels to him on the far left? Sure there are. We have some here actually, which I'm getting increasingly concerned about. And we also have parallels to him on the far right. 14 hours ago, Enrico_sw said: Sure, he lied and that's terrible. But the media lied, big tech lied and censored, left politicians lie. That's terrible, I'd prefer to be in a world where nobody lies, but unfortunately, lying is a common trait these days. And right wing politicians lie, like all of them. Yet Trump is specially effective at this and has lied and keeps on lying even more than your average politician. And he doesn't hesitate on backing any wild conspiracy theory as long as it benefits him. I'm not talking about what the media says about him here. It's just about reading his Twitter. 14 hours ago, Enrico_sw said: I know some of his supporters did share some conspiracies and that's terrible, but him, I don't remember any. On the other hand, I can see that his opponents promote many conspiracy theories like the patriarchy (one of the craziest theories ever and one that leads to massive distrust in society), the supposed Russian collusion and, more generally, all the identity politics that are based on theories that cause hatred and division. The guy has backed anti-vaxers in the past to please part of his base and posted some wild lies about abortion on his Twitter not so long ago. Him constantly calling climate change a "hoax" is another. 14 hours ago, Enrico_sw said: I agree that "us vs them" ideologies are terrible, but that's exactly what his opponents are promoting. The patriarchy is an "us vs them" theory. Identity politics in general create an "us vs them" situation and these politics are promoted by the far left and the far right. The difference is that, thankfully, the far right has no voice in the media. But the far left is overwhelmingly present in the media. You hear about their theories every day. And it's exactly what he's doing! That kind of ideology -us vs them- is what he promotes. What he thrives on. If not... why keep on holding rallies for his base, as if was still in campaign? This doesn't mean that on the other side it doesn't happen. 14 hours ago, Enrico_sw said: Honestly, I don't see that. But I remember the media protecting antifas that burnt cities and saying "peaceful protests". The mass media hates him (most outlets are left leaning except for a handful of news outlets). IMHO, Trump is a co-creation of the media, he's the scarecrow that helped them boost their sales by telling tales of the dangerous orange monster. In an authoritarian regime, the leader needs the media, but he didn't have them. He has Fox News backing basically everything he does. And that's a HUGE media conglomerate. And there's Breitbart and others that strongly back him. He does have media behind him. He is, though, in part a co-creation of the media. Both of those who are against him and those who are with him. And they created a monster that never should have reached power. 14 hours ago, Enrico_sw said: It's not typical of authoritarians, because in authoritarians regimes, the press colludes with the leader. So, the leader never has to insult the press. Look at China, a 100% of the press is pro Xi. Same for the Russian press and Putin. 15 hours ago, Enrico_sw said: There are no defeats in authoritarian regimes, because there are no elections (or they are masquerades). I'll refer to this: On 11/10/2020 at 1:29 AM, Stormbringer said: As I see it, the main reason he didn't go fully authoritarian is because the US, thankfully, still has strong enough institutions to prevent him from doing so. I haven't said that the US with Trump on power is an authoritarian regime. Because it's not. Because, thankfully, it still has strong enough institutions and structures to prevent people like Trump to turn it into it. But Trump does behave like an authoritarian and has plenty of the traits those "leaders" have. The US is not an authoritarian regime so it obviously has free press. Which Trump constantly attacks when it doesn't agree with him, as many authoritarians have done on their way to power. Same with the defeat. A defeat that can happen because it's not an authoritarian regime, yet he refuses to accept it. And he has plainly said in the past (well, and now too), in one of his many rallies, that he wasn't going to recoginze the results in the case of losing. That sounds very authoritarian-like to me. 15 hours ago, Enrico_sw said: The electoral system in the US is archaic. In many states you don't need an ID to vote. That's crazy. Of course, I agree that it's not particularly against him, but still that's archaic. Oh the system, with its Electoral College is archaic to say the least. And of course it's no particularly against him... last time he became president after losing by 3 million votes. But that's another story. But this, how that system works, was not my point. It's about him placing doubts on the legitimacy of the system months in advance to now yell about fraud when he noticed he was losing. Without presenting proof (as in everything he does). How curious he hasn't yelled about fraud or "STOP THE COUNTING" on the states he won, or that he didn't mention possible frauds when he won 4 years ago. 15 hours ago, Enrico_sw said: Twitter kept censoring him and his partisans. Twitter has a huge political bias. It's pretty obvious. Yet his account is there. Still active. You can read all his tweets. Any "censorship" has been recent and long after he took advantage of the platform. So let's not put him as the poor victim of big tech here. He has been greatly benefited by how social media platforms work. 14 hours ago, Enrico_sw said: One of the first US president that didn't start a war (for around 50 years). As for dividing people, look at those who make lists (like AOC). Which is among the few positive things I can say of his presidency. Yet he did start a "war". His commercial war on China that in the end benefited no one except maybe China... That doesn't take away his belligerent attitude and dividing character. Neither does that someone on the other side may be doing a similar thing. I mean, it's what he does all day long on Twitter.
November 18, 20204 yr Author I forgot to mention FDR- basically the most powerful president in the past 100 years. Republicans in the 1930s called him a communist dictator and called his managers as Czars. Given what transpired during his "reign" he was effectively an enlightened despot. Taxing the rich into the ground, hugely expanding the scope of gov't in a way that would make Obama blush, eliminating unemployment with public works and expanding the US defense industry to around 55% of the total economy. Winning World War 2 and creating the conditions of US hegemony and the emergent middle class society. Basically Trump would have had to live up to that. He tended to neglect FDR because he was Democrat This country is f*cked if it needs a enlightened despot to save it
November 18, 20204 yr Author On 11/9/2020 at 9:26 AM, Enrico_sw said: Trump may appear strong Trump is not strong, he is dumb and weak.... The biggest thing he did was to obstruct certain types of government spending (for an already bankrupt state) and get people killed with COVID B.S.
November 18, 20204 yr Author On 11/10/2020 at 8:26 AM, Enrico_sw said: Fascist regimes came to power in parliamentary systems that often times struggled with very harsh economic depression. Their underlying hateful ideologies were promoted by a fair share of the press. Look at which ideologies are massively promoted by the press nowadays (I'm not talking about the handful of news outlets that don't go with the flow, but the majority of the media). Look at wich ideologies the big oligopolies (like big tech) promote. That's a big indicator of where the totalitarian tendencies are stronger. I may be wrong, but we'll see. You are wrong- you routinely overrate the press and underrate human nature. Identity politics is a type of diversionary maneuver, similar to conservative "Christian family values" propaganda. It's weak metaphysics, meant to distract from the real and the concrete. All chatter and little substance. Mainstream conservatism never really recovered since the Bush years. They fell and the right wing conspiracy theorists started to emerge and the right wing "underground". This was christened "Alt Right" shortly before Trump took the office. Given your postings on BZ, you have a great hatred for the left and liberals don't you? Surly that is a sign. The problem with the American people now- which you could sense if you were an American- is the collapse of the "American Dream" that we (before the millennial) were raised to believe in. Certainly Baby Boomers held these views strongly The British had a similar existential crisis with the downfall of the British Empire after World War 1. The Germans couldn't admit that they lost the war and at least 1/3rd of the electorate implicitly blamed the Jews for all the evils in the world, like conservatives and Alt-Right blame all the evils of the world- on liberals by electing Adolf Hitler. This is part of a human inclination and desire to want the world to be predictable and understandable when it is complex and elusive. Our downfall was the Great Recession and the war on terror- that's the war we lost and it exposed the flaws of our society into the light. There is also the collapse of the idea of the US being a "hegemon". People miss the idea of American supremacy in global politics and economics. Political science/media routinely referred to the US as superpower and now that idea is laughable. When I a teenager in the 1990s the Chinese economy was worth less than the Japanese in terms of dollars. Now it's standing next to the US. Basically a con artist just needs to understand these two things and they're good to go
November 18, 20204 yr 7 hours ago, Cult Icon said: You are wrong- you routinely overrate the press and underrate human nature. I don't see the arguments and facts that support your claim. Just stating "you are wrong" is not enough. The press is called the "fourth power" (or 4th estate) for a reason. I don't think it's overrating it. I also talked about social media and big tech, which are clearly new forms of power (there are many scientific studies on the subject). Without powers like the press and social media, guys like Trump can't be called authoritarian. That was my point and I don't see your answer to it. 7 hours ago, Cult Icon said: Mainstream conservatism never really recovered since the Bush years. I already said that I don't like Bush in another thread. This guy started a war the destabilized the Middle East and also Europe. His strategists were pretty bad and their analysis of the situation was the exact opposite of what it really was. 7 hours ago, Cult Icon said: blame all the evils of the world- Identity politics blame the evils of the world too. Extremists on the right and the left blame evils of the world. 7 hours ago, Cult Icon said: Given your postings on BZ, you have a great hatred for the left and liberals don't you? Surly that is a sign. I have no hatred for the left and liberals. None. Quite the opposite. I have the utmost respect for moderate liberals who think for themselves and don't fall for extremisms. What I don't like is extremism (and far left ideologies like identity politics). And even with the far left: I try to be hard on the problem, but soft on the people. I don't hate far left wingers, I just think their ideology is dangerous. There is a cycle of hatred in the USA, and people like Jon Haidt are describing it. See videos like this one. I don't like this cycle and I don't want to go into this cycle. Don't try to bring me into it, it won't work. Discussing with you is better when you try to bring facts.
November 18, 20204 yr On 11/8/2020 at 3:14 AM, Cult Icon said: A question to ponder, looking ahead in 4 years. With Trump gone will a new "Alt Right" personality appear to replace him as a frontrunner or will mainstream Republicans take eventually take over? Maybe another billionaire will step up Rumors of Donnie Jr. or Ivanka possibly running in 2024. Can't see another Trump-like figure emerging though. Stylistically as well as in terms of his pre-politics profile, he is fairly unique. Another populist GOP candidate is very likely though but he or possibly she will probably be very different from Trump in many ways.
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