The Political Correctness Haters' Club

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@Enrico_sw

 

I was thinking about this issue recently and since the beginning of my studies I think that politicians, filmmakers, historians, and other scholars have missed some of the most important essences, lessons, and meaning of the Third Reich, the SS, and the German armed forces.  They tend to cling too much on some of the correct lessons about racism/genocide, war crimes, and anti-militarism - that were already popular and in circulation while ignoring the other ones.

 

The Reich was one of humanity's greatest social experiments and is uniquely profound as they illustrate vital aspects of the Jungian "shadow". A historian I read long ago compared the coming of the Third Reich as men's open rebellion against the established order- a desire to stop the spread of liberal social democracy/capitalism and return Europe to a form of modernized feudalism combined with ultra-militarism.  Certainly the visions of the SS were completely in-line with this.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_(psychology)

 

It's like masses of men rejected Christian morality, liberal democracy, benevolence and chose to embrace the "dark side'- megalomaniac ambition, power, wealth accumulation and openly embrace with the dark beauty of violence and the joy of killing.  They wanted a world that was firmly placed in the hands of their men.  So they were heroic for reasons that are distinctive- there was brotherly love but also mixed in with heroic destiny.  The Nazis invited them on a grand military adventure and a heroes' death.  They believed that their deaths would spring the eternal flowers of the nation which would dominate Europe for the next thousand years.  They would have huge families and big houses, have servants, and a brilliant future.  Instead of sports, violent TV, video games, literature, military history, etc. they chose the real thing!  That's the story of the 5 million German soldiers who ruthlessly sacrificed themselves on the battlefield instead of surrendering.

 

Of all the major combatants in Europe the weight of evidence is heavily tilted to the German soldier as the most heroic and highly motivated fighting man.  I have read hundreds of personnel records of German officers and senior non-commissioned officers and their heroism was without question.  For up to Six years of world war these men fought their hearts out - while being injured many times. leading their men 5 times, 10 times, and in extremes-  15 times cut down by bullets, fire, or most commonly, shrapnel from exploding grenades and shells.  Then returning to the field with impairments that would lead them to be removed from the front in other times and armies- sometimes missing body parts yet they continued fighting.  Even more significant was the level of resistance generated by the German military, which was largely generated from human and cultural means rather than any great advantage.  From 1943 onward they were extremely outnumbered yet generated a resistance that was far beyond what can be expected- leading to the unnecessary deaths of tens of millions of people.  

It also shocks me as it shows that undying heroism is humanly possible and far more common than we think.  It's like this hidden trait that is de-activated in civilian life but when the bullets start flying, the hidden self reveals itself and in many ways, is much more real and true. I think it's a hidden truism that men who excel at troop leaders are typically different than those that excel in civilian life.  Why did the open embrace of Nazism, Prussianism/German militarism create such people and what does it say about what men really want? This question and others are more intriguing to me than the classic, modern cliches'.  They speak to something deep, hidden, and more true- and more valuable.

 

When I look at the right and left these days it looks like they've lost their mind.  A century of violence and political struggle and all the old hatreds are still there, only updated.  People haven't learned enough and it's as two hundred million people died for nothing.  

 

People can't escape their shadow and pretend that it's not there.  It's them, just hidden away, always trying to free itself, express itself..

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On 6/17/2019 at 6:33 PM, Enrico_sw said:

 

Yes, it is a lynchpin. Verdun is one of the most important battles of WW1. It was called the "mother of all battles". It's a very long one (nearly 10 months) and it's very symbolic. In terms of pure strategic military advantage, it's not the most important battle, but it was key for the morale of the French troops and it helped creating a myth of an unbreakable French army (that was key in establishing the strong reputation that it carried... until 1939).

 

It's a pure French/German battle (just the two nations, continuing a feud that started in 1870). In that sense, the stakes were great for both nations. The Germans wanted to "bleed the French army to the death". They chose a key spot: vulnerable (the French roads to Verdun were crappy, whereas the German logistic was really good), symbolic (key in the history of the Franks and for the german Holy Roman Empire) and strategic (close to shell factories and logistic points).

 

The Germans compared Stalingrad to Verdun during WW2 (many of the oldest officers in Stalingrad served during Verdun). Heroism played a great part in Verdun, but like what you mentionned about Stalingrad, the orders given to the French troops were very stringent: "resist or die where you stand". No surrender was allowed and the handful of soldiers who tried to retreat were gunned down by their own troops with no mercy...

 

There seems to be a lynchpin with war that sours certain countries over it.  For the USA it was the defeat in Vietnam.  Prior to that the public had a different attitude toward war, and jingoist WW2 films and that ding dong John Wayne was still popular.

 

The meaning of the Somme for the British is largely of the great sacrifices of war.  It's a powerful symbol that turned the British public away from the open embrace of war.  I believe its impact extended into WW2 where the British public/press closely monitored and criticized their military leaders instead of openly embracing war like the Germans did.  For the Germans it was the death of the Nazi reich, which has continued to haunt them until this day.  Stalingrad was important as it crushed Germany's offensive morale.  It and developments to the West showed that they were losing the war.  The last 5% of Stalingrad was fought over with suicidal bravery on both sides.  I believe beyond the mechanics of the battlefield, both sides fought with a sense of historical destiny.  For the student of the Eastern Front, after Stalingrad the German military ran out of its attack spirit so to speak. 

 

So I guess that Verdun wasn't seen as an anti war symbol?  not even post-war?

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On 6/17/2019 at 6:55 PM, Enrico_sw said:

 

The US troops that landed in France in 1944 arrived in a (nearly) dead country, but France has existed for centuries before that. I doubt the English make jokes if they remember the Hundred Years' War. I'm pretty sure that if they ever made jokes, it was in 2003 after they agreed to fight a stupid war while we didn't.

 

 

It seems to me that European militarism (at least of the great Western powers) died in 1945.  The Germans were the last true militarists.   I remember reading something on the evolution of modern industrialized armies and France (pre-WW1) and other European powers were a major subject- it's hard to imagine today that countries at "peace" would devote 20,30% of their economy to the military while having militarism and nationalism as their leading ideology.  This lead to the power-keg of the Great War.

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On 6/17/2019 at 6:56 PM, Enrico_sw said:

@Cult Icon The landscape around Verdun nowadays... it still have signs of a war that happened a century ago!

 

 

Are there a lot of monuments to the French soldier of the Great War?  In the USA there are a lot of colonial monuments on the East Coast. DC's best memorial is the Vietnams war memorial.  One of my first goals in Berlin was to see what remains of the battle of Berlin but there wasn't much.  The Germans have tried to expunge their memories- which is foolish 

 

I was at the Gettyburg battlefield a few months ago.  It's rather quaint and not so interesting.  In Russia there are a vast number of monuments (and general interest), in the "Great Patriotic War".  Volgograd interests me, I would like to see it.

[Enrico_sw]

On 6/23/2019 at 7:22 PM, Cult Icon said:

Are there a lot of monuments to the French soldier of the Great War? 

 

There are lots of monuments on WW1. Many villages, towns, cities have these monuments, because people from everywhere in France were called to arms. In Paris, there are monuments to the French soldiers, but also monuments to our allies, like Russia/Belgium/US, and particularly to the Kingdom of Serbia (a close ally that paid a heavy toll for the war - they had the same number of total casualties as the UK, with a population 10 times smaller). As a matter of fact, the war started by a declaration of war from Austria-Hungary to Serbia.

 

The places where there are the highest number of monuments are the areas where there was the front line and big battles (like la Meuse). They usually look like this:

[Enrico_sw]

On 6/23/2019 at 6:13 PM, Cult Icon said:

So I guess that Verdun wasn't seen as an anti war symbol?  not even post-war?

 

There is a duality when it comes to the political views on Verdun. It has alternatively been seen as a military success (patriotic symbol/pro war) and as a "butchery" (anti war symbol). The political views have switched many times between these two visions. When we are in a "pro-military mood", it's seen positively, but in "pacifist" decades it's seen as a butchery.

 

When I was a kid, in the 90s, Verdun was an heroic symbol and the school taught us that. Nowadays, in the PC era, it is "appropriate" to hate yourself and be anti-war, so the schools are much more judgemental towards WW1.

[Cult Icon]

^^^

Interesting that there is an appropriation by two sides and for different purposes.   

 

The anti-war mentality in Europe makes me think that part of it is not just historical, but political manipulation- by being anti-war they can reduce military expenditures and focus on giving hand-outs to poor people or other expenses. Then the USA would have to make up for such low % Eurozone GDP devoted to the military...

 

For the US WW2 was the "last good war"

 

Korea and WW1 are forgotten.

 

Vietnam and Iraq are seen as criminal wars by "American imperialism".  

 

Desert Storm is one that isn't talked about enough.  It redeemed the reputation of the US military after Vietnam and I believe that it was directly responsible for generating support for the post-911 wars as it gave a false and juvenile impression that the American military could achieve anything with special forces, high tech gizmos, agents, and magic tricks.  As soon as the US got bogged down in Iraq the stupid myth disappeared...

[Cult Icon]

french comic on WW1

 

https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/It-Was-the-War-of-the-Trenches/TPB?id=156901

[Enrico_sw]

On 4/16/2019 at 3:57 AM, Cult Icon said:

@Enrico_sw  do you think Bruce Lee was a legitimately great fighter or was he more of showman?

 

He is certainly a "cult icon" and is legendary.

 

But I have my doubts that he could defeat someone with high pain tolerance and size like Tyson or a UFC fighter while weighing 140 pounds @ 5 foot 7 inches tall-  he seems more of a showman with extremely fast twitch muscles. 

 

 

@Cult Icon I just remembered this quote from Mike Tyson. I think he's 100% right

Quote

"Every one has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"

 

[CandleVixen]

2 hours ago, Enrico_sw said:

 

@Cult Icon I just remembered this quote from Mike Tyson. I think he's 100% right

 

Love it! 

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On 7/3/2019 at 6:55 PM, Enrico_sw said:

 

 

 

 

hmmph I dunno about that, people say such things to increase their own mystique.  I remember his legal troubles in the 1990s due to extreme excess, sex and violence.  Now that he's old and has a family, he's given up on excess it seems and become a weed smoker.. 

 

Tyson looks like a genetic freak to me, like one of those men with 3 times more androgen than the average man (like women with big natural breasts :D)) combined with a lot of anger and high pain tolerance.  He was a problem child from a shithole- if it wasn't for boxing he'd probably end up being behind bars doing criminal acts.

[CandleVixen]

 

Over 550,000 an hour for the fly overs in DC yesterday. Really?

Not to mention the bulletproof glass terrarium, and the tanks. 

 

 

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@Enrico_sw  I've been listening to this on audio as of late:

 

 

It's very revealing about what happened to the German Army after WW1- in particular they spend the 1920s-1930s literally preping for war with Poland and France- 1939/1940 was the culmination of two decades of effort.  The Treaty of Versailles and the weapons inspections ultimately didn't have much of an impact in stopping them.

 

 

 

[Cult Icon]

Andy Kaufman is not funny and his act would be considered racist today

 

Kristen Stewart and Stella are depressing

[Stromboli1]

Dude everything's racist nowadays.

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2 hours ago, Stromboli1 said:

Dude everything's racist nowadays.

 

 

[Stromboli1]

It's like equating different generations of sports stars to each other.

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sort of I guess.  Some comedy however has timeless humor with a wide range of appeal.  

[Stromboli1]

Pryor and Carlin are timeless.

 

Some sports stars are timeless as well.

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Kaufman would probably not even get jobs at Comedy Clubs these days because much of his act is impersonating immigrants and people with mental disorders..

 

Robin Williams is still good