Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince:

[SchtoopingHer]

I like your theory about Black's brother, though.

That seems like it might be likely.

[Guest Lullaby]

Ok well to each his own, but you don't have to be so obnoxious.

I wasn't being obnoxious to start off. I even edited my post to say it's just what I thought because I did come off that way.

Yeah, I know the title of HBP holds no real meaning ( I read the book, too, remember?) I just think he is significant if there is a book named after him, especially one about his past, and in which Harry unknownlingly defends him all year.

Well it's obvious he's significant, even without this book.

Yes he did write that name in his book, but do you write the names of which embarassed or ashamed in you books? or would you write things like Super Lullaby, or names you like? And (if anything) I think he would have changed his name to Snape when he went under the employ of Voldemort. Oh, and if nothing else, it is his rightful name, which is also a perfectly valid reason.

I write all kinds of names in my book. If it's not obvious who it is, why not do it?

About it being lily's book? Maybe in technicalities, but if you'll notice, the book was old. Perhaps like it was this year for Harry, it could have been loaned out to Lily that year. And that is wholey possible, for the book was before Snape's time, too. And thus, your argument against it being in Lily's possession is moot. Finally, the reason I said it was hers was because I meant she used it, and he wrote his notes in there for her.

The book was published before their time, yes, but that doesn't mean someone had it before him. Just because a book was published at that time doesn't mean that, that was when it was bought.

I don't think Snape would do that for the fact that he would ruin his standings in Slytherin house if anyone ever found out. I don't see him as the type of person to do that.

And don't say "Wrong" about people's theories, just cause you disagree. Have a little more tact and grace.

Read my edit on the post, thanks.

Just because Snape killed DD, don't assume the headmaster didnt see it coming.

I never assumed that.

And furthermore: Yes, Narcissa might not be a death eater, but it was literally right in front of one (You remember, Bellatrix, who happened to be peforming the vow, too). So the fraudulence of his loyalties would have been equally apparent had he refused.

I got the feeling that Bellatrix did not wish to do the vow or anything of the sort. She showed reluctancy in Narcissa even speaking of the matter so I don't see that coming into play much.

You also neglect to reply to what I believe one of the most important points I made: Why did dumbledore trust him so much? And why didn't he kill DD when he obviously had the chance earlier?

Because he was sent to spy on Dumbledore, not kill him. I think, once again, that him killing Dumbledore had a lot to do with the vow. That is NOT saying, however, that he didn't do it just for the Death Eaters who were there.

With a year so cryptic, and the knowing way in which DD froze harry just as Malfoy entered the room, don't you think it's a bit peculiar that DD would assign Snape to a post that, due to a curse, hasn't been able to keep a teacher for more than one year?

I think you missed my post as you said you didn't read them all and this is what I said when referring to him taking the Defense post:

Also, Snape got the position because Dumbledore wanted Slughorn in the school, away from Voldemort, and Potions was Slughorn's spot at some previous time. He was also the Head of Slytherin before and he has once again become it since Snape's disappearance.

Again, before you keep assuming I was trying to be obnoxious, remember that this IS the internet and things are easily confused as far as context is concerned. I was not trying to be condescending on you or anyone else.

[Guest Lullaby]

Oh and another thing, if it was Lily's book, why would he write that it was his property?

[SchtoopingHer]

As far as the condescending stuff, you hadn't edited the post when i started writing my reply, so in that regard I take it back.

My question meant to imply that Dumbledore foresaw his death, perhaps even at the hands of Snape, and that is why he appointed Snape.

When I said your post was moot, I meant because Snape and Lily were in the same year, so it is equally likely that either of them had it. We can safely assume that one of them did (unless you care to disagree) so i am saying it COULD HAVE BEEN (techincally) either. Thus why i was saying drop that argument.

EDIT: but i'll concede on that argument if you want me to, cause I think its a good point that he wrote his property on it.

To further my claim that Snape was still trusted by DD, I use evidence from the text. Right before they go to the cave, Harry yelled at DD for employing and trusting snape. At the end of the argument, DD says:

"You have no idea of the remorse Professor Snape felt when he realized how Lord Voldemort had interpretted the prophecy, Harry. I believe it to be the greatest regret of his life and the reason that he returned-"

And then harry interrupts him. But the reason I bring this up is because it goes well with my theory about him loving her. Yes, by the night the prophecy was made, if Snape was still a death-eater (DD confirms this in the paragraph before), he would have certainly known about voldemorts cruel killings. Thus, having discovered he was trying to kill potters family would have only made him upset if he harbored some sort of secret feelings for one of them. DD is smart enough to not have believed Snape was simply regretful the dark lord was a killer... he was regretful because he had loved lily, and because Volde had killed her. Thus proving he could love ( the main qualifier for DD's army), and that he truly was sorry, as opposed to the shabby excuse for trust Jo has us believe at the end of book 6.

Just my opinion, try not to jump all over it.

[Guest Lullaby]

My question meant to imply that Dumbledore foresaw his death, perhaps even at the hands of Snape, and that is why he appointed Snape.

I don't think Dumbledore would do that. It just seems stupid. You would think he would try to keep him out, not bring him in but Dumbledore is, or rather was, a twisted man when it came to some things.

And as to Snape loving Lily, I spoke with a friend who has not yet finished the book so she can't read through here yet and she says that saying Snape was in love with Lily is like saying he was secretly in love with James or Remus. In the scene where Harry falls into the pensieve it seems that Snape HATED Lily just like he did James, Remus, Sirius and Peter.

EDIT "Snape never gives any inclination that he ever acknowledged her existence, let alone was in love with her. If anyone was, by the amount of talking, Slughorn was."

My friend mentioned that just now.

[SchtoopingHer]

Yeah, I agree, and I can't remember the falshbacks very well.

But it seems to me there is a better reason why DD trusted Snape than we were given by the end of this book, and the only thing I can think of is love. And if you put that together with the fact he really hated James (even above the others), it seems most likely.

This is all conjecture, obviously.

EDIT:

Okay, I checked the chapter, "Snape's Worst Memory" from OOTP, and discoverd that everyone was laughing at snape, while james, sirius and lupin tortured and taunted him. Lily was the only one who told them to stop and "leave him alone!".

And yes, he does call her a mudblood, which isn't exactly helping my case. (this is a stretch but maybe he calls it his worst memory because in the heat of his anger, he said something he horribly regretted afterward.)

But it seems odd that he would be prejudiced against half-bloods, yet don the name, " The Half-Blood Prince" proudly in private. ( I don't care what you believe - To me, if you are writing "property of the half-blood prince", you're either ashamed of your pureblood father, or proud of the half-blood side. Either way, I think its supports my argument, to an extent)

So if there is something to be said for my side, its that she stands up for him in this scene, and that it still seems fishy to me that snape and Lily were equally gifted in potions, and form the same year. Perhaps this was another reason he had to fall for her - there similar talents/interests. And also note that during this time, Lily also hated James, so maybe it pushed Snape over the edge when he discovered James had gotten her.

[Guest Lullaby]

It's a good theory about love, but I just don't know if it was Lily. Too many signs say no, at least in my head.

I think it was OotP.

[SchtoopingHer]

Something I just realized:

Snape's father was the muggle, wasn't he?

Because Prince was in the Daily prophet or in school records, yeah?

So that means that Snape wasn't ashamed of either side, if he adorned the half-blood name (his father's heritage), and his mother's last name.

Or maybe its just that he only felt the prince half of his blood was valid.

i don't know.

[Guest Lullaby]

Or maybe its just that he only felt the prince half of his blood was valid.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think that's the point she was trying to make but Rowling is so.. I don't know, confusing I guess.

[avadakedavra]

First, I don't think there is any way that Snape can redeem himself. He was responsible, if indirectly for the deaths of Lily and James Potter. He was responsible, directly for the death of Dumbledore. He has at every turn tried to make Harry's life difficult. He saved him only because, as he states at the end, that to take care of Harry is the Dark Lord's privilege (paraphrased of course). Dumbledore believed Snape was good because Snape claimed he had regret over the deaths of James and Lily. Which, as we see from Lupin's reaction, is a flat out lie. Snape hated James, and anyone who had anything to do with him or Sirius. And the reason Snape killed Dumbledore is because of the Unbreakable Vow he made with Narcissa (on one hand) and on another it was something that the Dark Lord ordered directly and as Malfoy could no do it, he did it, again because of the Vow.

And Snape's goal was never to simply kill Dumbledore. As he stated numerous times to Bellatrix, he was there to spy. He was there to gather information on the Order (as I'm sure will become more evident in the 7th book as he reveals his secrets to Voldemort). He stated numerous times that EVERYTHING HE DID was to follow Voldemort's orders.

And yes Dumbledore went straight to Snape upon his injury, and yes he didn't kill him. But why? BECAUSE THAT WAS DRACO'S MISSION. It was his test from the Dark Lord to see if he, like his father, would be loyal. The idea that Snape was "not happy" about taking the vow is ridiculous. He could have said no, he could have stated that it was Draco's mission (as it obviously was). To say that Snape had been lying to Voldemort (when he himself states "Or that I have somehow hoodwinked him? Fooled the Dark Lord, the greatest wizard, the most accomplished Legilimens the world has ever seen?") is ludicrous. As good as Snape was at Occulmency, he couldn't keep the likes of the Dark Lord out of his head.

Dumbledore went to Snape because he trusted him and Snape let him believe in that trust until it was ultimately Dumbledore's end.

And I'm on the bandwagon of believing that R.A.B. is young mister black.

Note: I would like to make mention that I never thought Snape was evil. I always labelled him as an anti-hero. That he would save them because of his responsibilities to Dumbledore and perhaps whatever had made him turn from Voldemort. That was proven wrong to me in this book.

[SchtoopingHer]

The only thing I really have to say to counter any of your points is that it seems likely that Lupin might not know, had Snape truly kept his love for lily a secret.

And I still think everyone is too eager to believe that Snape just said he regretted it, and Dd believed him. There is something more to his admission we are missing. DD was too samrt to just believe an apology. Like we were filled in on the details of Snape's return to Volde, I think in the next book we are going to here the full unobstructed truth about Snape's "return" to DD after they were killed. I mean it seems quite possible to me, given that Harry interupted him right as he was going into the details of how the scene went. (see my above post with the quote).

Again, I am just guessing, and readily admit I could be wrong, but that was what I was thinking the whole time I read it.

And if Snape was truly evil, it seems a waste to reveal it at the very beginning of the book, without any twist or notes of interest. And if one were to read into it without any thinking there would be twists, it pretty much makes the whole rest of the book boring to me, or if nothing else, anti-climactic. Dumbledore looks stupid, and the whole thing becomes a predictable and obvious bore. We knew Draco was up to something the whole time, we knew snape was bad, and therrefore the whole death of DD scene is apparent. The whole series of books everyone thought he was a bad guy and the twist is -- he is?

No no, I think there is still more to snape than meets the eye.

[avadakedavra]

I don't know. They've hated each other for 20 years, I think Lupin might have a fair idea. And Snape hated muggleborns. You don't use terms like 'mudblood' if you're secretly in love with one.

And we were never lead to believe, at least I was never lead to believe that he was never "evil". It was always written that while yes he gave Harry a hard time, and yes he had a "dark past" that he was fighting on the side of good.

I feel this book only goes to show that he most definately was not.

[SchtoopingHer]

And no one has yet answered my question:

Why would Snape try to leave Dumbledore's employ if he were a spy?

[avadakedavra]

And no one has yet answered my question:

Why would Snape try to leave Dumbledore's employ if he were a spy?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When exactly did that happen?

[Guest Lullaby]

When did Snape try to leave Dumbledore's employment? I want a quote or a page number from a book where I can see it because I don't remember EVER seeing that.

[SchtoopingHer]

And we were never lead to believe, at least I was never lead to believe that he was never "evil". It was always written that while yes he gave Harry a hard time, and yes he had a "dark past" that he was fighting on the side of good.

I feel this book only goes to show that he most definately was not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

See, I think that that's what DD told us, but that he never showed it. And the protagonists, Harry, Hermione, and Ron, always seemed to be accusatory of him.

I always tend to think the author's protagonist's views are what the audience is "supposed" to think. Except in this book, where we were treated to info the protagonist isn't. Which is what made the end shocking to me. I expected the final twist to be that everyone, from harry to the audience (which now had proof he was bad) thought snape was bad, but that he wouldn't be.

So I guess I'm kinda holding on to what I envisioned the twist to be, but I also think its got promise. (The snape trying to quit, and the insistence of the wise mentor that snape is good (for what up til now has been no good reason) leaed me to believe something is gonna cahnge our views on him)

[SchtoopingHer]

When did Snape try to leave Dumbledore's employment? I want a quote or a page number from a book where I can see it because I don't remember EVER seeing that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Here is the scene:

Page 405 (US hardback edition), about 3/4 of the way down the page, hagrid lets slip that Dumbledore is angry at Snape, and harry pushes him for more information. Hagrid says:

"I dunno, Harry, I shouldn'ta heard it all! I - well, I was comin' outta the forest the other evenin' an' I overheard 'em talkin' - well, arguin'. Didn't like ter draw attention to meself, so I sorta silked an' tried not ter listen, but it was a - well, heated discussion an' it wasn' easy ter block it out."

"Well?" Harry urged him, as Hagrid shuffled his enormous feet uneasily.

"Well - I jus' heard Snape sayin' Dumbledore took too much fer granted an' maybe he - snape - didn' wan' ter do it anymore - "

"Do What?"

"" I dunno, Harry, it sounded like snape was feelin' a bit over worked, tha's all - anyway, dumbledore told him flat out, he'd agreed ter do it and that's all there was to it. Pretty firm with him."

And then it goes off on another tangent.

That's where I remember EVER reading that.

And my question still stands: If he was keeping tabs on Dumbledore and trying to help Malfoy (and NOT DD) why would he try and quit?

[safin83]

well this is a nice converstion you are all having, i think i see your point schtoopingher(not so much that snape loved lilly, but that is an intresting point, based on the whole love thing), but there may be more then meets the eye on snape, but i do have a question, i think i remember reading that the postions book once belonged to snapes mother, if so couldnt the book just have been passed on to him, and of course would make it impossibe for the book to be lilly's also; but i may have read wrong though

[SchtoopingHer]

No, I don't remember that, but I think you could be right.

I think Hermione just looked up the name prince, I don't think there was a reference to her year in school, or the a connection between her years at the school and the year of publication.

But i could be remembering wrong, too.

[Guest Lullaby]

You can't even assume he was going to quit his job considering Hagrid doesn't even know the full conversation. That and Hagrid said he SOUNDED like he was over-worked, he did not say that Snape said he was over worked. There is a big difference, especially where Snape is concerned.

Unless, of course, I'm reading it in a different context than you are which may be the case.