Sarah.Adams Posted June 24, 2017 Author Share Posted June 24, 2017 yup ......................this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah.Adams Posted June 24, 2017 Author Share Posted June 24, 2017 this guy is so brilliant for his age Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elfstone Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 ^ Indeed its effortless in this day to find hyper-partisan nonsense like the above. What he's saying is demonstrably false and pernicious, even by the standards of 'internet advocay' which at its core tends to be incendiary. But I think its unfair to solely blame the internet for diatribes like the above, since such utterances, their depravity notwithstanding, originate from the power corridors of Washington, New York as part of the official state narrative, and astonishingly enough, keep reverberating in the academia as well. Let me start off by saying that any attempt to examine the state of Israel, without accounting for this dynamics of settler vs native, or citizenry vs a stateless people, is a blatently hypocritical approach, if not a dubious exercise altogether. It is no co-incidence ( and very rightly IMO) that academic/serious investigatios of the Nazi Regime, in order for the scholar to make his/her respective case, DONT place much emphasis on ACTUAL characteristics of the Jewish population under occupation. I sometimes do wonder what the landscape in academia would be like if more people attempted to account for the Nazi War-crimes in such vulgar way. I for one will never be the proponent of such an approach, nor do I have the time and patience for such antics. However, I'd be remiss if I didnt shed light on this scarcely analyzed aspect of Israeli State/Society. In view of the acrimony I may risk arousing by stating my own opinions on the matter, let me instead rely on two figures, each from the opposite side of the.... political spectrum, for lack of a better term Zygmunt Bauman in 2011: Quote I don’t know how people will interpret what is happening today when they will look back at it in 25 years. But the fact of it being an unknown does not mean that we shouldn’t judge what is happening in front of our eyes. I would use the point made by [Tony] Judt .... that Israel is becoming a “belligerently intolerant, faith-driven ethno-state”, that the middle eastern “peace process” is finished – “it did not die – it was killed.” I was expressing similar sentiments nearly 40 years earlier in “Haaretz” as I was leaving Israel in 1979. My concerns were related to the toxic and corrosive characteristics of the Occupation, its putrefying effect on ethics and the moral scruples of the occupiers. I was concerned at that time that the younger [Israeli] generation was growing in the belief that state of war and military readiness – in 1971 still treated as “state of emergency” – was normal, natural, and probably unavoidable. I was concerned with a country that was learning to hide its numerous and inevitably growing internal social problems, washing its hands of those problems by inciting and inflaming the sense of external threat, [thus] losing the skill to deal with these problems in the process. Inside that besieged fortress, arguing – no, even expressing a simple difference of opinion – is [becoming] both criminal and treason. I was also disconcerted with the inversion of the Clausewitzian doctrine of war, where war is a continuation of policy, and transmogrifying policy into . . . military ventures, the consequence of which has been the remorseless erosion of democratic habits. I was concerned with the deepening inability of Israel to live in a state of peace and with people’s growing disbelief in the possibility of life without war, and with the political elite’s fear of peace when they would no longer know how to govern [without war]. I also share the fear expressed by Judt as to the use of Holocaust by Israel’s rulers as a get-out-of-jail card for their own depravity and absolution of their sins, both those that they have already committed and those they are going to commit. I also wrote about it in “Modernity and the Holocaust” (1989), citing Menachem Begin when he calls Palestinians Nazis, and paints having them as neighbors of Israel, of seeking another Auschwitz. Begin was answered – very mildly and in an oblique way – by Abba Eban, who was a minister in the Labor Party, that it was time for Israel to stand on its own feet, rather than standing on the feet of six million murdered victims. The way of “commemorating” the Holocaust in Israeli politics is one of the main obstacles in realizing the potential of the Shoah as a moral purging [for Jews] – and in a way is a post-mortem triumph for Hitler, who dreamed of creating conflict between Jews and the whole world, and between the whole world and the Jews, in preventing Jews from ever having peaceful coexistence with others. [My] radically opposite way of “commemorating” the Holocaust can be summarized as follows: It is forbidden to stay silent in the face of Israeli crimes and their persecution of Palestinians exactly because the fate of Jews in Europe had similar beginnings – discrimination, pogroms, ghettoes, concluding with the Shoah. And there you have it. It is a mission of the survivors of the Shoah to bring salvation to the world and protect it from repeated catastrophe: to expose those hidden from the world, but still suffering – to prevent another disgracing of civilization. The greatest of historians of the Holocaust, Raul Hilberg, understood that mission when he used to stubbornly repeat that the Shoah machine did not differ in its structure from the “normal” organization of German society. To put it another way: the Shoah was one of the expressions of that society. And again, theologian Richard Rubinstein remembered that just as personal hygiene, subtle philosophical concepts, superb works of art, or sublime music are expressions of civilization, so too is imprisonment, war, exploitation, and the concentration camp. The Shoah – he said in conclusion – “was not an expression of a collapse in civilization but of its progress.” Unfortunately, this is not the only lesson of the Shoah. Another one is that the one who hits first becomes the top dog, and the more iron the fist, the better chance of getting away with it. The rulers of Israel are not the only ones that draw on and amplify this sinister lesson, they are not the only ones that should be blamed for the post-mortem triumph of Hitler. Yet when Israel, whose founders took up the mantle of being the custodians of Jewish fate, does these things, then the shock is much greater than in other cases – because this fact also destroys a myth, a myth accepted by us, that is important to us: That suffering ennobles, that victims come out cleansed, exalted and altogether saintly. And here it turns out how things turn out in reality: As soon as their suffering is over, victims stand waiting for the first opportunity to pay back their persecutors; and if taking revenge on yesterday’s persecutors is somehow unattainable or inconvenient, they rush to erase the dishonor of yesterday’s weakness . . . and show that they also know how to wave the baseball bat and crack the whip – and that they will use whatever is at hand to achieve victory. What is the wall built around the Occupied Territories if not an attempt to surpass the creators of the wall surrounding the Warsaw Ghetto? Hurting people debases and morally destroys those who are doing the hurting . . . [Hurting others] does, however, initiate the process that the great anthropologist Gregory Bateson named “schizmogenesis” – a sequence of action and reaction where each consecutive behavior may exaggerate one another, leading to an ever more deepening schism. Elsewhere, Bauman said in defense of his notorious 'comparison' of West Bank with Warsaw Ghetto: Quote What I also said, but was not picked up by my opponents, is that the decision to build a wall between Jews and the occupied population of the Palestinians could be seen as Hitler’s posthumous triumph. It almost attained what Hitler wished but did not succeed to achieve: to set Jews and the rest of the world at loggerheads and make their peaceful coexistence all but inconceivable or impossible. Avraham Shalom, former head of Shin Bet ie the Israeli NSA. He felt no hesitation in admitting on-camera that his organization has been guilty of physically torturing Palestinians, at times resulting in deaths. However he once made a very candid admission: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2309788/ Quote ...On the other hand, its (IDF) a brutal occupation force, similar to the Germans in World War II... .....Its a very negative trait that we acquired, to be.. I'm afraid to say, so I wont. We've become cruel, to ourselves as well, but mainly to the occupied population, using the EXCUSE of the war against terror. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elfstone Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 4 hours ago, SuperG.Girl said: Palestinians are 100% responsible for their fate. They should stand up, get rid of their vicious leaders, get rid of their idiotic beliefs and take corrective action The Balfour Declaration is easily accessible on the internet. Could you point out exactly where it states among its objectives the urgent need to eradicate corruption and superstition among the Palestinian leadership? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elfstone Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 5 hours ago, SuperG.Girl said: Palestinians are 100% responsible for their fate. They should stand up, get rid of their vicious leaders, get rid of their idiotic beliefs and take corrective action https://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/28/gazas-millionaires-and-billionaires-how-hamass-leaders-got-rich-quick/ You wouldnt think Palestinians are unique among people situated between Jordan River and Mediterranean that desperately need 'corrective action'?? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair https://theintercept.com/2017/06/06/fifty-years-later-nsa-keeps-details-of-israels-uss-liberty-attack-secret/ To our shared relief, Hamas or ISIS are still considered terrorist outfits, instead of being elevated to the level of a national army. Same cant be said of some other 'terrorist' groups who continue to wreak havoc throughout the world, yet at the same time enjoying the admiration of those situated in the most liberal corridors of the West. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiramis_Hotel_bombing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neils von Zeppelin Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 7 hours ago, jj3 said: That's your facts. No... I do not own these facts... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neils von Zeppelin Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 On 17/06/2017 at 6:05 PM, SuperG.Girl said: instead of converting it to a huge crater which would be the solution to a zillion different problems You hide behind a man, a fanatic spirit of the Israel cause... As you wish... And here you show all the extent of your hatred against Saudi Arabia... No comments... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cult Icon Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 Most Jews in the US are democrats despite the anti-israel components on the left. Some contradictions here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elfstone Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 Saudi Arabia is barely a traditional Arab country. Let it be understood from the onset that I dont romanticize the traditional arab society, but given the current mess in MENA that has far-reaching implications for global security, it is worthwhile pointing a few things out. Not unlike the Israeli state, Saudi Arabia exists as a profound contradiction within the greater region if not throughout, owing to its geogrphic significance, the Muslim world as such. A century ago, Britain, in a bold attempt to undermine the Ottoman Emperor system during WW1 colluded with this particular community from the peripheries (in terms of geography as well as islamic ideology) to enable their capture of the holy sites. During an appalling spectacle, these militia,ie predecessors of the later Saudi state, laid waste to many of the holy sites within the 'Hejaz region', thereby sowing the seeds of future sectarian conflict in the Middle East and Beyond. Over time, it has become almost self-evidet that Saudis enjoy bipartisan support from both sides of Atlantic NOT despite but because of their fanatical/millenerian beliefs. According to one interesting feature of their doctrine, 98% of the Muslim population are a mass of idol worshippers/apostates, masses that must be inculcated with the same set of paranoid beliefs. In instances where that may not be possible, brute force or extremist proxies will do the job. It is hardly coincidental that so many terrorist/vigilante groups that have brought their respective countries to the brink of state failure, in many cases precipitating the current refugee crisis, draw their ideological strength precisely from the Wahhabi/Salafi strand of Islam. I leave it to your imagination the nature of their views regarding other faiths. One might ask; how did such degenerates manage to carve such a large sphere of influence in the greater muslim world? To be honest, someone else carved it out for them, under the cover of 'fighting communism' of course, the perfect alibi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah.Adams Posted June 25, 2017 Author Share Posted June 25, 2017 2 hours ago, Niels von Wittelsbach said: You hide behind a man, a fanatic spirit of the Israel cause... As you wish... And here you show all the extent of your hatred against Saudi Arabia... No comments... the whole area from Pakistan to Turkey should be converted into craters ...... Israel included @elfstone not bad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elfstone Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 22 minutes ago, SuperG.Girl said: the whole area from Pakistan to Turkey should be converted into craters ...... Israel included @elfstone not bad When it comes to craters, looking at the photos of moon is gratifying enough for me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neils von Zeppelin Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 1 hour ago, elfstone said: When it comes to craters, looking at the photos of moon is gratifying enough for me Well played !!!... Well judged !!!...Well-argued !!!... Congratulations !!!... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neils von Zeppelin Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 It is well known China is, by far, the first and largest polluter of our planet... By emissions of CO2 in 2013... In recent years, with the contempt of all ecological intelligence, its economic development has been exponential... Today when I think of China I remember the title of a Fritz Lang film Ministry of Fear... Outside and Inside... Fear of losing huge contracts... Fear of economic reprisals... Fear of dependance on Chinese factories " China the factory of the world "... Fear of a Revolution able to swept aside all that lay in its path... Already strong challenging in Hong Kong... Most heads of State, chiefs executives officiers of big business corporations, dare not meet the Dalai-lama... Two only "exceptional exception "Barack Obama and Angela Merkel... Today... A tragic era for Tibet... The Dalai-lama calls it "a cultural genocide "... And unfortunately more than that... Over the last five years more than 140 Tibetans including Buddhist monks have sacrificed themselves, have set themselves ON FIRE, to protest against the horrible treatment of the Tibetan people... To attract the attention of the world... Source The Washington Post. Chinese communism is a relentless tool against Tibet... A deadly war machine... The situation is at complete standstill... Chinese authorities move heaven and earth in order to prevent leaks... No cry out against... From the international community... And the leaden silence that continues to shroud Tibet ..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah.Adams Posted June 25, 2017 Author Share Posted June 25, 2017 taking the risk, time and effort to destroy a rock formation just because it looks like a penis? ..... and does it really look like a penis? https://www.mail.com/int/news/europe/5306322-norwegians-collect-money-to-penis-shaped-rock-form.html#.1272-stage-hero1-3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenchkiki Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 It doesn't ^^ this look like a penis warning: penis Spoiler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17 Moments of Spring Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 13 hours ago, Cult Icon said: Most Jews in the US are democrats despite the anti-israel components on the left. Some contradictions here. Jews have spearheaded socialism since Marx. The socialist states were anti-Israel and pro-Arab. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cult Icon Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 ^ Not true in the USA. They are democrats largely due to their location. But most do not have family ties to Israel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17 Moments of Spring Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 ^ I just say that the contradiction you mentioned is not newfangled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cult Icon Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 The socialist states were not, however, run by jews- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cult Icon Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 Politically incorrect: LBJ was a great American politician, that should be appreciated for his extremes- gigantic victories tainted by giant defeats JFK's most impactful contribution was his death rather than his 3 years of presidency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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