Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (2016)

[Michael*]

7 hours ago, Cult Icon said:

“What is really going to matter, I believe, is what the audience says,” the Brit explains, “Because they’re the ones who are buying tickets, they’re the ones who want to see more of this kind of story or not and so the audience’s voice is loudest and after this weekend the audience, at least partly, will have spoken.”

 

I'm inclined to agree with Cavill on that, at least to a point. Despite the critics being, well, critical, it's the people paying to see it who will be the ultimate arbiters. And of course, films like this are relatively bulletproof in the sense that most of the folks queuing at the local cineplex won't have even read the reviews. Whether it'll yield really monstrous numbers though, will depend more on the subsequent word of mouth, the comments on social media and repeated viewings by the diehards.

 

My curiosity about stuff like this is such that I'll still be giving it a look. Plus, I always enjoy spotting Stan Lee's cameo.

[Michael*]

8 hours ago, Cult Icon said:

The Superman (adult) character, in my experience, has always been rather shallow.   He has generally been the backdrop in the comics. The thing with Synder's comic book movies is how rigidly they follow the comic book structure.  300 and Watchmen were often panel by panel copies of the graphic novels that inspired them.  Man of Steel's depiction of superman's conflicts (except the transient worker part) is pretty much directly from the comics.   It's a shame that it was not explored with much more depth than in the comics.  With S V B, he probably was inspired a lot by the comics as well.

 

The copying element is cool from the perspective of "dejavu" but the comic book format doesn't usually translate into film very well.  Watchmen was very awkward for this reason.  300 and "sin city" were successful exceptions.  A common complaint from non-comic book readers is that Synder's films resemble a collection of trailers. 

 

Yeah, the impression I get when I read Superman stuff is that the writers work under an assumption of the audience already knowing what he's about, when in actual fact there's plenty of room to explore his values. There's the crusader/protector thing, the paragon of virtue and also the alien from another world, which are all very potent aspects of the character, but they somehow feel strangely under-developed when they're not presented to you as a package.

 

I usually find that the main problem with Snyder is that storytelling just isn't one of his strong suits. He seems to have trouble getting the most out of a script, even when it's a script of his own creation. To avoid having something like the Justice League come across as silly, the story would have to be handled carefully and very delicately, and I'd question whether that's really in his wheelhouse.

[Kevork89]

The movie has dominated. Opening weekend at around 170 million and worldwide total of about 420 million. So that's great. The first weekend of course was going to be good but the legs is where we will see what the audience really thought. If it has good word of mouth and if people loved it enough to see it repeatedly then it will get up to a billion. If the critic reviews affect it passed this point and has bad word of mouth the second week will be quite a drop.

[katchitup]

6 hours ago, Michael* said:

 

Yeah, the impression I get when I read Superman stuff is that the writers work under an assumption of the audience already knowing what he's about, when in actual fact there's plenty of room to explore his values. There's the crusader/protector thing, the paragon of virtue and also the alien from another world, which are all very potent aspects of the character, but they somehow feel strangely under-developed when they're not presented to you as a package.

 

I usually find that the main problem with Snyder is that storytelling just isn't one of his strong suits. He seems to have trouble getting the most out of a script, even when it's a script of his own creation. To avoid having something like the Justice League come across as silly, the story would have to be handled carefully and very delicately, and I'd question whether that's really in his wheelhouse.

THIS! Superman in the comic books and in the movies lacks alot of depth. There could just be so much more to him and his character but he's just kind of there. Batman is more complex as a character with more emphasis on his moral values, why he is the way he is, his hurting people but never wanting to kill anyone etc. It just makes you more invested in the character.

 

Snyder has awesome graphics and can tell a somewhat cool story, but it just in the end tends to be a sloppy story line, but pretty to look at. His characters often contradict themselves and their own values in his films and it's never explained why. It just "is".  

[PinkCouture]

So sad I feel bad for laughing ....

 

[Kevork89]

@PinkCouture Hahahaha poor Ben. He's probably thinking this is Daredevil all over again. But at least most of the reviews have said that he was really good in it.

[Kevork89]

It's quite strange to see this. Truthfully I find it a little perplexing. BvS definitely had its flaws but it's so much better than Daredevil. Use score is a better indicator though.

 

[Michael*]

22 hours ago, Kevork89 said:

The movie has dominated. Opening weekend at around 170 million and worldwide total of about 420 million. So that's great. The first weekend of course was going to be good but the legs is where we will see what the audience really thought. If it has good word of mouth and if people loved it enough to see it repeatedly then it will get up to a billion. If the critic reviews affect it passed this point and has bad word of mouth the second week will be quite a drop.

 

If nothing else, it's good that people aren't just blindly going by what the reviews are saying. Critics can be pretty hive-minded at the best of times and let's face it, they've whiffed en masse on many occasions in the past. It's probably safe to assume that most of us have something in our media collections that we really enjoy, that was far from acclaimed when it first came out.

[Kevork89]

@Michael* Hahahaha that is for sure. I have so many cheesy B grade movies.

[Michael*]

Saw it this afternoon. There were a lot of reasons why it didn't work for me, but by far and away the biggest was the characterisation, with Snyder's interpretation of his two leads just way, way off base. As much as Affleck’s embittered version of Bruce Wayne impressed, which was a lot more than I expected, his callousness about killing flew in the face of Batman's core essence. It's no secret that there have been exceptions to his 'no killing' rule in the books, but the deaths in the movie weren't that, they were Snyder going "wouldn’t this be badass?". For me, if the story had focused more on Wayne's undoubted guilt and his descent into antihero territory, it would have been a lot easier to buy into.

 

Unfortunately, I thought Cavill's Superman was just as lost in his own way. Usually, in a huge ensemble piece, the differing ideologies of characters is where the fun comes from, but Clark wasn't a contrast to Batman, just an ever-so-slightly different shade of grey. Luthor was annoying, thinly-sketched, and really only there to push the plot along.

 

Elsewhere, I did see elements of a much stronger film that fails mostly because it tries to do far too much. It strings you along with promises of getting good soon, and to be fair, it shows signs of doing exactly that. Next thing you know, just when it feels like it's winding up, it takes a left turn and either goes off in a pointless direction, or starts moving towards some other interesting subplot that is again dropped far too quickly. So overall, although I wouldn’t say it was an unmitigated disaster by any means, it fell well short of its potential. It's really just frustrating to have heard Snyder proclaim this his dream project for years, only to demonstrate that he doesn't have a clue what three of DC's real a-listers are meant to be about. Characters need to be more than recognisable names having a scrap. They need, well, character.

[Clauds]

I haven't seen the movie yet but i'm going this weekend, i just want to throw my two cents in the whole critics and reviews.

 

They are bullshit. They expect DC movies to be fun and more family friendly like Marvel and they are not, DC has been very clear that they want to be a different kind of universe and stay away from the fun, jokes and such that Marvel got us used to and that's completely fine and understandable, DC characters are quite darker anyway. I think critics were tashing this movie before it even came out, they were ready to hate it and they are doing it. It's not the first time they've done so and it won't be the last time. MoS was the same, critics were hating it pretty much from the start and I think Justice League will be the same, they already started bitching about Ezra Miller's cast and we haven't seen literally the smalles bit of his work. I agree with the critics that DC is quite stupid by not merging their series and movie worlds but that doesn't mean I'm already thinking Ezra will be shit as The Flash.

 

I've spoken to a lot of people who have seen the movie and not a single one has described the movie as bad, shit, terrible or awful. Everyone said it's either good or really good but no one I know has said it's the mess critics are making it seem. So at the end of the day Henry does have the reason: Audience are what matters and so far they are buying tickets and watching so fuck the critics  

 

I'll come back with my review once I watch the movie.

[Michael*]

I think there's room for the Avengers approach and the Dark Knight approach, but I don't see anything wrong with aiming somewhere in between. Take a guy like Captain America, who has more or less the same values and disposition as Superman. Making the character work in ‘Winter Soldier’ (a movie with some really dark themes) was as simple as having him keep his optimism in the face of very dangerous circumstances. Snyder seems to mistake audiences wanting less grim heroes for audiences wanting lighthearted family comedy, which is a huge misconception. Besides, BvS didn't just lack humour, it lacked structure and direction in its storytelling.

 

My last hope for the Justice League movie now is that they do something really different with Ezra Miller's Flash, because at this rate it's just going to be Wonder Woman and six angsty anti-heroes. Without a few contrasting personalities, there'll be no fun to be had.

[Clauds]

So I finally watched the movie today and I absolutely loved it. It's going down as one of my favorite DC movies ever for sure. I like that they took the time to explain Bruce and Lex's story without making it too long or too slow, they gave us just enough to understand where they are coming from. I think Ben did a great job taking over Bruce Wayne and I was surprised by how much I enjoyed it, Henry was great as usual and I will never not love him as Superman; however IMO Gal and Jesse steal this movie for me, in the few moments we see Gal as WW she kills it and she seems so natural at it, I love her and I agree with most of people saying she was one of the best things about the movie, thrilled she's next in line for a film. Jesse was also absolutely amazing, he reminded me of Heath Ledger's Joker which is obviously a great thing, if it hadn't been for the terrible hair it would have been perfect, but he is such a good and strong actor, I hope we get more of him as Lex.

 

I also enjoyed the little previews of Jason and Ezra, especially Jason since he was on costume already. I'm very excited about the upcoming movies tbh.

[Michael*]

Now this is a movie I wouldn't mind seeing.

 

 

[Cult Icon]

Michael I have heard of news (business press) of a 'shift' with studios regarding DC- they want to make future movies less "dark" and serious after the sub-par performance of b vs r and suicide squad

[Michael*]

On 9/9/2016 at 3:54 PM, Cult Icon said:

Michael I have heard of news (business press) of a 'shift' with studios regarding DC- they want to make future movies less "dark" and serious after the sub-par performance of b vs r and suicide squad

 

The recently released Justice League teaser would seem to back that up too. I really am still pulling for DC to get it right, but the clip just felt jarring to me because it was such a huge about-face from all its previous references. It's a pity that we've had to arrive at a point where seeing the characters written as they are is a shock to the system for them to reconsider their direction.

[Cult Icon]

On 9/9/2016 at 4:20 PM, Michael* said:

 

The recently released Justice League teaser would seem to back that up too. I really am still pulling for DC to get it right, but the clip just felt jarring to me because it was such a huge about-face from all its previous references. It's a pity that we've had to arrive at a point where seeing the characters written as they are is a shock to the system for them to reconsider their direction.

 

The article I read talked about the studios not tightly controlling Nolan, who then was able to produce a quality product.  They extended this practice with Synder.  Now that B v S has failed, Synder is being put on a leash.  B v S is apparently a turning point and he might even be replaced. 

[Michael*]

On 9/9/2016 at 4:34 PM, Cult Icon said:

The article I read talked about the studios not tightly controlling Nolan, who then was able to produce a quality product.  They extended this practice with Synder.  Now that B v S has failed, Synder is being put on a leash.  B v S is apparently a turning point and he might even be replaced. 

 

I vaguely remember Snyder stating (possibly before the release, certainly before the poor reviews started rolling in) that Justice League would probably be lighter in tone than BvS. The recent statement from studio head Geoff Johns more or less just reiterated that, only this time making it sound like Snyder was about to be thrown under the bus.

 

Presumably what this points to is Justice League (much like Suicide Squad before it) either being edited to within an inch of its life by the studio, or being super heavy on Johns’ New 52 influence. Perhaps both.

 

There's going to be so much pressure on Wonder Woman now to get in good with the critics. If it doesn't, I wouldn't be surprised if some of those other DC projects mysteriously disappeared from the calendar.

[Cult Icon]

They need to find a replacement for Nolan IMHO.

[Michael*]

37 minutes ago, Cult Icon said:

They need to find a replacement for Nolan IMHO.

 

Yeah, I mean the Nolan trilogy wasn't exactly canon, but it was a singular vision from start to finish and he understood the characters. Unlike Snyder, storytelling is his strong suit, he was given license to tell them the way he wanted and had the freedom to make sure that the narrative worked within the world he'd created.

 

I'd like to see DC take their time now and get themselves an in-house studio, where a producer can oversee each movie so that they don't totally contradict each other. It'd be a more effective way of opening the fans up to a wider universe.