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[Jade Bahr]

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On 4/17/2024 at 4:57 AM, Jade Bahr said:

Can you name a few movies?

 

Pretty much every major German WW2 movie The Bridge, Stalingrad 1993, Generation War (very hamfisted), etc. plus the films about extremely minor characters in the grand scheme of things like Sophie Scroll etc.  The choice of topics is quite obvious that they would never do a serious historically movie/show work from an authentic German army's point of view due to contemporary politics. Outside of Der Untergang (Downfall) which I like the rest are marred with artificial writing.

 

The way the 'German band of brothers' (Generation War) was written compared to "Band of Brothers" is like night & day.  

 

American movies from the German POV also have a huge ahistorical distortion and a hamfisted artificial message about 'the Good German vs. the Nazi' due to Cold War era politics and afterwards - All Quite on the Western Front, Valkyrie, Bridge from Remagen, The Desert Fox, Iron Cross etc. In western films they will often put in a 'Good German' vs the Nazi character- eg. Schindler's List & the Pianist to balance things out.  

[Jade Bahr]

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^Believe me when I tell you there are tons of movies of the german POV - coming to my mind are Der Vorleser (The Reader - the book maybe more than the movie), Napola - Elite für den Führer (Before The Fall),  Die Fälscher (The Counterfeiters), Geheime Reichssache (The Men behind Hitler), The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas, Leni Riefenstahl: Olympia (from 1939), Kolberg (from 1945), Quax der Bruchpilot (Quax the Crash Pilot - even though it's more a comedy from 1941), Verräter vor dem Volksgericht (Traitors before the People's Court), Die Mörder sind unter uns (The Murderers Are Among Us), Der Hauptmann (The Captain), Vor der Morgenröte (Farewell to Europe),  Ein verborgenes Leben (A Hidden Life),  Steiner – Das Eiserne Kreuz (Cross of Iron part I + II), Lore (POV of the daughter of a high ranked nazi), Des Teufels General (The Devil's General), Aimée & Jaguar (love story between the wife of a nazi and a jewish woman), Anonyma - Eine Frau in Berlin (A Woman In Berlin), Unser letzter Sommer (Summer Solstice), Dresden, München – Im Angesicht des Krieges (Munich – The Edge of War), Hitlerjunge Salomon (Europa, Europa), Der Unhold (The Ogre), Stella. Ein Leben (Last Song for Stella).

 

Then of course super famous Das Boot (from Wolfgang Petersen), Die Blechtrommel (The Tin Drum), Das Wunder von Bern (The Miracle of Bern), So weit die Füße tragen (As Far as My Feet Will Carry Me), Stauffenberg from 2004 (not the Tom Cruise one - there are lots more of german movies about this dude), Unter dem Sand – Das Versprechen der Freiheit (Under sandet), Im Labyrinth des Schweigens (Labyrinth of Lies), Der Staat gegen Fritz Bauer (The People vs. Fritz Bauer).

 

I could go on and on because yeah the germans love to process their dark history you just have to look beside the commercial stuff. As a kid in germany you grow up with the permament memory of this part of our inglorious past. And that's only WWII 😆

 

I think you also have to distinguish between a motion picture and a documentary. I think motion pictures are mostly either overdrawn or historical changed for the sake of the story/characters, pace and access for the audience. 

 

If you want 100% history accuracy you have to watch the movies made during the reign of the German Empire if you have access to them. There are literally tons of it. Of course not every title is available in every country.

 

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_während_der_Zeit_des_Nationalsozialismus_im_Deutschen_Reich_uraufgeführten_deutschen_Spielfilme

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On 4/19/2024 at 6:15 AM, Jade Bahr said:

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^Believe me when I tell you there are tons of movies of the german POV - coming to my mind are Der Vorleser (The Reader - the book maybe more than the movie), Napola - Elite für den Führer (Before The Fall),  Die Fälscher (The Counterfeiters), Geheime Reichssache (The Men behind Hitler), The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas, Leni Riefenstahl: Olympia (from 1939), Kolberg (from 1945), Quax der Bruchpilot (Quax the Crash Pilot - even though it's more a comedy from 1941), Verräter vor dem Volksgericht (Traitors before the People's Court), Die Mörder sind unter uns (The Murderers Are Among Us), Der Hauptmann (The Captain), Vor der Morgenröte (Farewell to Europe),  Ein verborgenes Leben (A Hidden Life),  Steiner – Das Eiserne Kreuz (Cross of Iron part I + II), Lore (POV of the daughter of a high ranked nazi), Des Teufels General (The Devil's General), Aimée & Jaguar (love story between the wife of a nazi and a jewish woman), Anonyma - Eine Frau in Berlin (A Woman In Berlin), Unser letzter Sommer (Summer Solstice), Dresden, München – Im Angesicht des Krieges (Munich – The Edge of War), Hitlerjunge Salomon (Europa, Europa), Der Unhold (The Ogre), Stella. Ein Leben (Last Song for Stella).

 

Then of course super famous Das Boot (from Wolfgang Petersen), Die Blechtrommel (The Tin Drum), Das Wunder von Bern (The Miracle of Bern), So weit die Füße tragen (As Far as My Feet Will Carry Me), Stauffenberg from 2004 (not the Tom Cruise one - there are lots more of german movies about this dude), Unter dem Sand – Das Versprechen der Freiheit (Under sandet), Im Labyrinth des Schweigens (Labyrinth of Lies), Der Staat gegen Fritz Bauer (The People vs. Fritz Bauer).

 

I could go on and on because yeah the germans love to process their dark history you just have to look beside the commercial stuff. As a kid in germany you grow up with the permament memory of this part of our inglorious past. And that's only WWII 😆

 

I think you also have to distinguish between a motion picture and a documentary. I think motion pictures are mostly either overdrawn or historical changed for the sake of the story/characters, pace and access for the audience. 

 

If you want 100% history accuracy you have to watch the movies made during the reign of the German Empire if you have access to them. There are literally tons of it. Of course not every title is available in every country.

 

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_während_der_Zeit_des_Nationalsozialismus_im_Deutschen_Reich_uraufgeführten_deutschen_Spielfilme

 

I agree with your points that there are differences between a documentary and a film.  There are a lot of films from the German POV especially from Germany but there is a lot of postwar Editorizing with the scripts with politically correct agendas with the 'commercial stuff'.  Even Das Boot has that but it's a lot more nuanced.  It's like there is formula that they use.  Of the list you post (I recognize most but not all) the ones I recognize I consider all deliberately influenced by post-war culture.  

 

Stalingrad 1993 -excellent production but it follows the 'formula' to a T, which detracts greatly from the film.

 

 

The German soldier in WW2 1939-1943 on average had above average professionalism and fought with incredible bravery- while outnumbered and died in the millions.  With rare exceptions they largely conformed to the expectations of the society & state that they served.  And they did so thinking that they were the good guys.  I think the irony is that the real German soldier was closer to Nazi propaganda newsreels than the actors in their war films. 

 

In a way they are in a confused position, and to me they have a lot of kinship with the American soldier, who also falsely believed that they were the 'good guys' and also served incompetent and criminal regimes & committed vast war crimes while maintaining professionalism and bravery, and self sacrifice.

 

I think with the war over for a very long time and with the American empire declining (and perhaps one day Americans will abandon their bases in Germany, which is occupied state) the German people will be free again to pursue their path with their own history, economy, and culture, rather than being ruthlessly influenced by US multinational corporations and the government.

 

I don't think that the memory of the German men in WW2 (or other nationalities) should be considered 'dark' and ruthlessly censored out from German culture- they should be recognized as flawed and human, with contradictions, like a kaleidoscope. In the US we have a few films that honor the courage and experience of American soldier in Vietnam even though it was a corrupt and failed war.  In films like We were soldiers they are seen as they were, products of the nation of which they came.

 

Will there be a 'normal' German WW2 film that honors manly courage and martial skill ever made? It may take a few more decades IMHO.  Is there any film in your wikipedia link that is like this?

 

[Jade Bahr]

On 4/21/2024 at 4:58 AM, Cult Icon said:

I agree with your points that there are differences between a documentary and a film.  There are a lot of films from the German POV especially from Germany but there is a lot of postwar Editorizing with the scripts with politically correct agendas with the 'commercial stuff'. It's like there is formula that they use.  Of the list you post (I recognize most but not all) the ones I recognize I consider all deliberately influenced by post-war culture. 

First movie coming to my mind TROY (2004) lol Every action/intentions of the characters are hilariously modern from Helen to Hektor and Achilles. Also some kind of war movie if you want so or at least a movie about a famous war (I don't think the movie follows any historian agenda nor mythology at all). Now it's just a fun aesthetic movie to watch.

 

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With rare exceptions they largely conformed to the expectations of the society & state that they served.  And they did so thinking that they were the good guys.  I think the irony is that the real German soldier was closer to Nazi propaganda newsreels than the actors in their war films. 

 

In a way they are in a confused position, and to me they have a lot of kinship with the American soldier, who also falsely believed that they were the 'good guys' and also served incompetent and criminal regimes & committed vast war crimes while maintaining professionalism and bravery, and self sacrifice.

That's the crux of the matter, isn't it? For generations to come, we wonder how the hell did these terrible events even happen and how managed those "leaders" people not only to follow them but to carry out such terrible deeds? There was this experiment -I think of a US teacher called THE WAVE from 1981- showing his students how easily our species can be fooled even with all the knowledge of WWII. You probably heard of it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wave_(1981_film)

 

I mean we still live in a time of wars. Less have changed for the better, some would claim we are moving backwards right now.

 

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Is there any film in your wikipedia link that is like this?

I really can't say. I haven't seen most of them, and if I have, it was in school a long time ago, as some kind of learning experience that I barely remember because I had no interest in it at all.

[Jade Bahr]

 

Harris Dickinson is gorgeous.